The new Camaros!

MightyBobo · 04-01-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_Nash

GM doesn't have the $$$ and even if they did, the Camaro is already on the wrong end of its appropriate price point.

Why do you say that? Its already being considered a bargain for the price...performance wise at least. How many other 400+ HP cars are out that are that cheap?

Robert_Nash · 04-01-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

Why do you say that? Its already being considered a bargain for the price...performance wise at least. How many other 400+ HP cars are out that are that cheap?

What part of my statement don't you agree with?

That GM has no money for development or the price point?

If it's the price point it is what it is.

The Camaro's primary audiance are the exact same as those of the Mustang...a Camaro with the performance everyone is drooling over is already dangerously close to the Corvette's price point and more than the Mustang; at least in the bread and butter/low-end models - GM absolutely cannot price the Camaro much higher than it is and putting the kind of high-tech weight savings components and manufacturing techniques necessary to shave any real weight from this car is EXPENSIVE...GM would never make its investment back.

Frankly, if I ever buy another GM product it's like to be a CTSV or a "Vette - the camaro simply donesn't make financial sense anymore.

When I bought my most expensive TransAM (a brand new '79; it was around $9K and that was a Black/Gold edition with every option available - the only thing more expensive that year was the the 10th Anniversary...in comparrison, a Corvette was selling for about double that if my memory is correct...that's a huge difference in money out of pocket and in price point.

Now, a well equiped base Corvette (whish is a hell of a good performance car) is only aobut 19% more expensive than the top-dog Camaro...I just can't see GM allowing the Camaro to get much clsoer (that's assuming of course that GM's new CEO, Mr. B.O. doesn't kill of cars like the Camaro and Corvette).

Crash · 04-01-2009, 01:50 PM

Meh, the primary audience for the Camaro is the group of Camaro Fanboys.

Robert_Nash · 04-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Meh, the primary audience for the Camaro is the group of Camaro Fanboys.

No...afraid not.

Even if all the fanboys and girls buy one that won't be a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers needed to make the car viable...enthusiasts always think they are the most important component in a model's success but the reality is that they are actually the lest important.

Crash · 04-01-2009, 06:24 PM

Actually, that's how GM makes it seem too! GM doesn't really care about the people that buy their cars just as long as they do buy their cars.

BanningZ · 04-01-2009, 06:43 PM

^And people question profit losses and bailouts why?

I appreciate a company that stands by their product and the consumer.

Endgame · 04-01-2009, 06:49 PM

i would rather have a Stang GT, and have the dealer install the S/C. Then I would have a lighter modern day muscle car, much lighter than the Camaro and equal power.

But, in the end, make mine Z!

Robert_Nash · 04-01-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Actually, that's how GM makes it seem too! GM doesn't really care about the people that buy their cars just as long as they do buy their cars.

I'd say that's both true and not true.

When talking about "GM" the huge corporation (or Honda or Nissan or BMW) you are right...the corporation cares about the corporation and making a profit for its shareholders. That is, after all, its only true reason to exist.

However, when you get "below" the "corporation" then you are talking about real people with real emotions, including in many cases, a passion for cars and for enthusiasts and customers.

Of course, all companies must not only make a profit but no matter how large a corporation is, they have a limited pool of resources which they can spend to generate a profit so at the end of the day, the Camaro not only has to make a profit but it has to make enough of a profit to justify the resources it uses (and which can't be spend on other models that may provide a better ROI).

Crash · 04-02-2009, 04:38 AM

The way I see it, GM purposely screwed other niche cars to sell one specific niche car.

For example, the 98+ Trans Am was supposed to have a few Corvette-esq options, like a Heads Up Display for one. Instead, GM decided that it would compete with the Corvette too much. Even though those with the money for a Corvette would rather buy the Corvette. As if some guy with the means to buy a Corvette is going to buy a Trans Am instead just because it has a HUD. That's pretty dumb. Now where is the passion for the car there? How come 20% of the Trans Am's features were stripped because the passion for the car was only there for the Corvette? Greed? No... How come the Corvette (to this day) is the only Chevy car with GPS? Or how about electronic ride control? Or active RFID intelligent key system? Or any of the other things that are common on Altimas, Accords, etc. They killed off the Grand Prix because it had a HUD! I mean, how does a Grand Prix (a top selling Pontiac sedan) compete with a Corvette (the top selling Chevy sports car)?

I don't feel that GM has a passion for anything except suckering people into buying crappy cars. They don't produce in large volume making all their vehicles more expensive (which pushes the mark-ups higher too) and they cut every corner they can. Instead of producing cars with lots of options, they funnel people to the very few cars with the options people want that consequently cost nearly double what people are looking to spend for a vehicle with those options.

The Corvette is a bad-@ss car, but when the only option to get a car with the features you want is either a Corvette or stepping up to a Cadillac, then I feel it's total BS.

MightyBobo · 04-02-2009, 10:55 AM

Crash - being in a VERY GM family, I can understand some of the gripes. The most frustrating thing is the freaking option packages, sometimes. But then again, its just like trying to get the Nav system in a Base 370 I suppose.

I think theres more to them killing off the GP than just the HUD - probably poopy sales since it was, well, old. And not particularly exciting at all. Not that anything Pontiac made was really "exciting" anymore. Remember that old commercial? "RIDE, PONTIAC RIDE!" Everyone knows it when they were a kid, and it got you wanting a Pontiac. And then you grew up and realized that most of them suck, and what the hell happened to the "driving excitement" they advertised? It just wasnt there, minus in the Trans Am, and thats it really.

GM fell into a nasty spiral of making knock offs of their own cars (sharing similar platforms of course). Don't want a Cobalt? Get a G5! How about the Sierra? Nah, I want the Silverado instead. Same damn vehicles, different shell. Why did they do this? Its not needed at all! Worse yet, they have WAY too many vehicles in their line up! ****, lets look at Chevy by itself. Why do they need the Impala AND the Malibu, when the Malibu is obviously far superior? And why even have the Colorado now - whats the point, you can even get it with the same 5.3L in the Silverado, yet its still too small of a truck to do real truck work. The Avalanche can go - its pretty much pointless. And oh my god, how many SUVs/Crossovers can you have? Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban, HHR, Equinox, Trailblazer (on its way out). You could easily get rid of 3-4 cars that Chevy makes, get rid of its facilities, and focus the funds there on R&D for producing QUALITY vehicles. Not a sheer huge SELECTION of vehicles.

The new Camaro is cool, and I have high hopes for it selling well. The Corvette is great too, but of course you still hear mumblings and grumblings about its cheap interior even though its a 45K+ car. The new Malibu is a huge leap in the right direction for fit and finish. The new Saturns got the short end of the stick, IMHO - they aren't even the same anymore as they used to be, but their reputation for crappy cars is forever tarnished. Pontiac is a pointless brand that can just disappear. Buick sells too well in China to get rid of them.

Many of their other vehicles though, have a lot of room for improvement, though...

Crash · 04-02-2009, 09:58 PM

I agree with all of that except a couple of things:

Saturn was actually pretty good when they first came out (quality wise) because they were practically indestructable. Yes, they look like crap and smell like it too, but that doesn't make them crappy. They're an economy car. But now Saturn build quality is no different from any other GM. I have friends with Skys and Ions and a few of them have had problems left an right, just like my Solstice has had.

The other thing is:

Quote:

But then again, its just like trying to get the Nav system in a Base 370 I suppose.

I totally disagree. You can get GPS in a 370... Yeah, you need a different trim, but you can get it in that car's body, that car's motor, etc. I have the top of the line Solstice GXP with every option possible (except the smokers package) and there's NO way to get GPS in a $30K+ car. WTF? Name ANY Chevy car (not the trucks) that can get GPS as an option... The only one I can think of is the Corvette.

I don't see the different between the base 370z and the Touring 370z the same as the different between the Solstice GXP and a Corvette with Navi. Two different cars with two COMPLETELY different budgets!

GM has their heads up their @sses. They need to kill off ALL of their cousin platform cars and reduce their line up to completely different cars. No cousins. No Sky vs. Solstice. No Corvette vs. XLR, DEFINITELY no GMC vs. Chevy trucks... (That's just retarded). And for F**k's sake, GIVE US SOME FREAKING OPTIONS!

My family used to be all about GM. We've had so many GM cars it makes me dizzy. I had 3 Pontiacs before I bought my 19 year old 300zx and said "Wow... This is better than all of the GMs I've owned." And that's just sad. My mother refuses to buy American cars due to the lack of craftsmanship and quality. Although, now she's looking into buying the new Tesla Model S (my suggestion

) and that's likely to be the first American car she'd be able to depend on.

frost · 04-02-2009, 10:01 PM

PS, a price increase was announced for the maro. The dollar amount will be released 4/9.

355890 · 04-02-2009, 11:13 PM

Camaro, I just don't get it.

2 totally different types of cars made for 2 totally different reasons.

Hold your head up a little and compare yourself to something significantly better in design and engineering than that of a car built by a company that is totally broke, union frustrated and suffering with shortage on manpower, CEOless, Obama run.

You know this reminds me when I was still back in England and the Triumph TR7 days. Great looking car at the time, but an absolute piece of junk. Hell the UNION was on STRIKE most of the time it was being built, how can one possible build a car with care and pride if your walking a picket line 339 days of the 365 offered that model year.

GM's not on strike, but then again there is no employee left too strike.

Crash · 04-03-2009, 05:27 AM

HAHA! Well, some of what you said, I didn't understand, but what was left was pretty good.

MightyBobo · 04-03-2009, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

I agree with all of that except a couple of things:

Saturn was actually pretty good when they first came out (quality wise) because they were practically indestructable.

-Touche - my buddies 1992 Saturn lasted FOREVER.

The other thing is:

I totally disagree. You can get GPS in a 370... Yeah, you need a different trim, but you can get it in that car's body, that car's motor, etc. I have the top of the line Solstice GXP with every option possible (except the smokers package) and there's NO way to get GPS in a $30K+ car. WTF? Name ANY Chevy car (not the trucks) that can get GPS as an option... The only one I can think of is the Corvette.

I don't see the different between the base 370z and the Touring 370z the same as the different between the Solstice GXP and a Corvette with Navi. Two different cars with two COMPLETELY different budgets!

-Yes, the option would be nice. You'd probably have to wonder, maybe they just dont have the resources to make a "proprietary" GPS system?

GM has their heads up their @sses. They need to kill off ALL of their cousin platform cars and reduce their line up to completely different cars. No cousins. No Sky vs. Solstice. No Corvette vs. XLR, DEFINITELY no GMC vs. Chevy trucks... (That's just retarded). And for F**k's sake, GIVE US SOME FREAKING OPTIONS!

-Extremely agree, as you saw in my post

My family used to be all about GM. We've had so many GM cars it makes me dizzy. I had 3 Pontiacs before I bought my 19 year old 300zx and said "Wow... This is better than all of the GMs I've owned." And that's just sad. My mother refuses to buy American cars due to the lack of craftsmanship and quality. Although, now she's looking into buying the new Tesla Model S (my suggestion

) and that's likely to be the first American car she'd be able to depend on.

-I steered my dad to a new Mazda6, and he couldn't be happier. Lots of nice features, attractive exterior and interior - he loves it. And I know it will probably be very reliable. My mom will never leave GM, though - she just got a brand new Tahoe. But, on the other hand, that is a tried-and-true GM vehicle that is almost always a solid performer. Im not shy about buying GM again (hell, I have an 08 Silverado), but you have to be very careful which ones you get...

Read bold.

04-01-2009, 01:50 PM	#138 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	Meh, the primary audience for the Camaro is the group of Camaro Fanboys. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

04-01-2009, 06:24 PM	#140 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	Actually, that's how GM makes it seem too! GM doesn't really care about the people that buy their cars just as long as they do buy their cars. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

04-01-2009, 06:43 PM	#141 (permalink)
BanningZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: nowhere Posts: 5,478 Drives: 06' Nismo Frontier Rep Power: 29	^And people question profit losses and bailouts why? I appreciate a company that stands by their product and the consumer. __________________ Become a Premium Member: Click HERE MB 06' Nismo VQ40DE

04-02-2009, 04:38 AM	#144 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	The way I see it, GM purposely screwed other niche cars to sell one specific niche car. For example, the 98+ Trans Am was supposed to have a few Corvette-esq options, like a Heads Up Display for one. Instead, GM decided that it would compete with the Corvette too much. Even though those with the money for a Corvette would rather buy the Corvette. As if some guy with the means to buy a Corvette is going to buy a Trans Am instead just because it has a HUD. That's pretty dumb. Now where is the passion for the car there? How come 20% of the Trans Am's features were stripped because the passion for the car was only there for the Corvette? Greed? No... How come the Corvette (to this day) is the only Chevy car with GPS? Or how about electronic ride control? Or active RFID intelligent key system? Or any of the other things that are common on Altimas, Accords, etc. They killed off the Grand Prix because it had a HUD! I mean, how does a Grand Prix (a top selling Pontiac sedan) compete with a Corvette (the top selling Chevy sports car)? I don't feel that GM has a passion for anything except suckering people into buying crappy cars. They don't produce in large volume making all their vehicles more expensive (which pushes the mark-ups higher too) and they cut every corner they can. Instead of producing cars with lots of options, they funnel people to the very few cars with the options people want that consequently cost nearly double what people are looking to spend for a vehicle with those options. The Corvette is a bad-@ss car, but when the only option to get a car with the features you want is either a Corvette or stepping up to a Cadillac, then I feel it's total BS. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

04-02-2009, 10:55 AM	#145 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 52	Crash - being in a VERY GM family, I can understand some of the gripes. The most frustrating thing is the freaking option packages, sometimes. But then again, its just like trying to get the Nav system in a Base 370 I suppose. I think theres more to them killing off the GP than just the HUD - probably poopy sales since it was, well, old. And not particularly exciting at all. Not that anything Pontiac made was really "exciting" anymore. Remember that old commercial? "RIDE, PONTIAC RIDE!" Everyone knows it when they were a kid, and it got you wanting a Pontiac. And then you grew up and realized that most of them suck, and what the hell happened to the "driving excitement" they advertised? It just wasnt there, minus in the Trans Am, and thats it really. GM fell into a nasty spiral of making knock offs of their own cars (sharing similar platforms of course). Don't want a Cobalt? Get a G5! How about the Sierra? Nah, I want the Silverado instead. Same damn vehicles, different shell. Why did they do this? Its not needed at all! Worse yet, they have WAY too many vehicles in their line up! ****, lets look at Chevy by itself. Why do they need the Impala AND the Malibu, when the Malibu is obviously far superior? And why even have the Colorado now - whats the point, you can even get it with the same 5.3L in the Silverado, yet its still too small of a truck to do real truck work. The Avalanche can go - its pretty much pointless. And oh my god, how many SUVs/Crossovers can you have? Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban, HHR, Equinox, Trailblazer (on its way out). You could easily get rid of 3-4 cars that Chevy makes, get rid of its facilities, and focus the funds there on R&D for producing QUALITY vehicles. Not a sheer huge SELECTION of vehicles. The new Camaro is cool, and I have high hopes for it selling well. The Corvette is great too, but of course you still hear mumblings and grumblings about its cheap interior even though its a 45K+ car. The new Malibu is a huge leap in the right direction for fit and finish. The new Saturns got the short end of the stick, IMHO - they aren't even the same anymore as they used to be, but their reputation for crappy cars is forever tarnished. Pontiac is a pointless brand that can just disappear. Buick sells too well in China to get rid of them. Many of their other vehicles though, have a lot of room for improvement, though... __________________ I don't own a car anymore.

04-01-2009, 06:49 PM	#142 (permalink)
Endgame A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Phoenix Posts: 1,613 Drives: Nothing Now! Rep Power: 224	i would rather have a Stang GT, and have the dealer install the S/C. Then I would have a lighter modern day muscle car, much lighter than the Camaro and equal power. But, in the end, make mine Z!

04-02-2009, 10:01 PM	#147 (permalink)
frost Retired admin Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Winterfell Posts: 106,613 Drives: Your Wife Crazy Rep Power: 0	PS, a price increase was announced for the maro. The dollar amount will be released 4/9.

04-02-2009, 11:13 PM	#148 (permalink)
355890 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 416 Drives: GP Z Base+Sport (6m) Rep Power: 541	Camaro, I just don't get it. 2 totally different types of cars made for 2 totally different reasons. Hold your head up a little and compare yourself to something significantly better in design and engineering than that of a car built by a company that is totally broke, union frustrated and suffering with shortage on manpower, CEOless, Obama run. You know this reminds me when I was still back in England and the Triumph TR7 days. Great looking car at the time, but an absolute piece of junk. Hell the UNION was on STRIKE most of the time it was being built, how can one possible build a car with care and pride if your walking a picket line 339 days of the 365 offered that model year. GM's not on strike, but then again there is no employee left too strike.

04-03-2009, 05:27 AM	#149 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	HAHA! Well, some of what you said, I didn't understand, but what was left was pretty good. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary