Has VDC made you a worse Z driver?
 

If you are like me, you enjoy driving your Z pretty hard at times, often with the traction control disabled. Last weekend I was driving my Nismo with VTC off. There had been one of those misty first rains after a period of hot weather. My Nismo came around on me so fast all I could do was go two-feet-in and wait for the crunch!

I'm 40 and have been driving since I was 16. I had a 07 350z & other sports cars prior to this and rode streetbikes for years in all weather. I've tracked my Z and driven numerous other high powered cars. This was my *first* accident. Fortunately it was a low speed bounce over the curb backwards, which did in the wheel, tie rod & who knows what else under there. Passenger side airbags went off also (though I was alone in the car).

So I was thinking - what the hell happened?

I came to the realization that lately I've been just mashing the pedal and letting the Nizzy's very capable traction control save me. I never intended to lose my "feel" for the edge of traction & feedback from the car, but this change in my driving style has just happened slowly over time.

So has VTC allowed me to become a worse sports car driver?

This isn't a question about safety - obviously had I left VTC on, my car wouldn't be in the shop right now and I wouldn't have endangered myself and others, but is the safety of the throttle-dump experience worth the trade-off in driving experience and actual driving skill?

More likely a lapse in judgement than getting too used to driving with VDC... it happens.

im not sure how i can test driving skill on the streets other than for smooth shifting so the VDC is usually turned on unless i know im going to be driving in this hump/dip area where the VDC over-reacts and slows the car down.

On the contrary, I think its made me a better driver. It lets you know where the limits are and it leaves it up to you to decide when you want to push it. Imagine how many more wrecked Z's there would be without the VDC. It was much easier to drive with driving aids when cars were heavy or underpowered. Most people can't handle a 200hp car properly without driving aids, let alone one with 332hp or more.

I turn it off first thing when i get in my car.

im not trying to be some street racer by any stretch of the imagination, so giving up the safety of the vdc just to say i can drive with it off doesnt make much sense to me. if i ever attempt real race driving, like starting auto-x and working my way up, then yes vdc will come off. but on city streets... nah, im a better driver when im not wrecking my car.

:iagree: wrecked car=worst driver!

It all depends....

If this is your first sports car which you have never gotten sideways - yes VDC will let you safely explore how much and how fast you can push your car to its limits...

If this is just another sports car and you drive a lot and feel the need to be connected to the car 100% of the time - VDC is going to make you worse... i mean it does hold you back... simple as that.

Let me also say this - just because you have VDC - does not mean your car will never crash - you can most def kick the tail out w/ VDC on with some creative gas mashing

I bet you anything some of the worlds best drivers have walked away from some bad crashes... It teaches you to respect your car. And if you respect your car - it will respect you back. Plain and simple.

agreed. but accidents happen, as evident by the overwhelming number of wrecked Z threads!

I think my problem is switching back and forth. Its easy to get used to being saved by the VDC - until the day you've got it switched off. I find that the Z can be quite stable with the rear stepping out. In this particular case, I should have recognized that the road conditions were very slick, and considered turning VDC on or just driving with extra care.

yeah, if you are going to switch between on and off, you have to be mindful of whats around you at all times. not paranoid, just mindful.

yes I have had close calls with VDC off due to me not being used to it.

I have a tendency to turn off VDC in an open road and come around a corner mashing the gas , to remember the power it has, kind of keeps me in check. my scariest moments were flooring it in second and loosing traction in that gear.

I really haven't found much of a need to turn mine off until lately. It could be because the roads are finally dry here in the NW or I'm just getting more comfortable behind the wheel of a Z. I do find one thing highly annoying with the VDC on. That is, when starting from a complete stop while making a left or right hand turn, or starting off strait away while on an uneven paved surface sometimes the VDC kicks on. It's just an odd feeling when the car loses all acceleration for a bit.

I guess it serves as a reminder of how easy it can be to break the rear loose, just as a couple of you others mentioned. I do recall reading 3 or 4 threads from earlier this year about crashed Z's. I do believe they all had their VDC turned off...bet they wished they would have never turned it off now.

i wonder why o why when i saw the question about vdc i had a gut feeling that someone turned vdc off and then crashed his car? :rolleyes:

Yes

VDC allows you to become lazy, and picks up the slack. It fixes your minor mistakes, where maybe you would have just fishtailed a little. It corrects that for you. Unfortunately, you now don't get that experience of learning just how far out you would have swung your ***, nor do you scare the piss out of yourself by almost crushing a fire hydrant with your car. So you don't learn as much as you would have. We learn the most from our mistakes.

I turn off VDC as a habit every time I get in the car. I don't go tearing up the streets, I have 13k mi on my OEM tires, and plenty to go. I just don't want the nanny messing with my driving.

VTC is just like other techno upgrades cars have gotten over the years. Did power steering make you a worse driver? Did better suspensions make you a worse driver? Etc. Technology is great and helps the overall driving experience IMO. I would much rather have all the high tech stuff and be able to push the car further to its limits than not have the stuff and not be able to obtain the same limits.

Wanna test your driving skills? Put a rocket on a soap box and drive it.

^^ I agree

In general driver aids can increase performance -- of course it depends on how much of a nanny they are. F1 and other racing leagues would not disallow traction and stability controls if they made the drivers slower. The fact is they make the cars easier to drive faster. But the better funded teams with better simulation models would develop better traction control systems and hence have a technological advantage over the other drivers, that's why those systems are banned.

I think that VDC does indeed help you go faster, but it only makes you a "worse" driver if you allow yourself to tune out what your car is telling you.
I tend to be pretty smooth and intuitive with good feel... I laugh when traction control or ABS kick in just as I'm easing off the throttle or brake because I beat the computer to the punch :-)

Yeah. I typically leave it on, but I try to judge when it would have kicked in. There are a few times when I first got the car that I've felt it kick in and I've adjusted my driving accordingly. You can still get feedback from the car, but instead of feedback from a minor mistake in the form of a bit of fishtail, you instead have to be sensitive to whether the VDC kicked in.

One of those live and learn things

slightly relevant to this topic

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...5f70eb948c.jpg

Traction control was in F1 for many many years and the drivers were most definitely faster as a result. They would get to the apex of a corner and just mash the throttle and let the computer figure it out. The first year of the ban they were all a second a lap slower. But the TC systems that were used in F1 cost more than our damn car and can't really be directly compared. The Z is most definitely slower with TC on but it is safer, especially when you take into consideration the distractions that are constantly around us. Lots of auto-x is the way that I keep my edge. If it's raining I'm usually contending for FTD.

^^ I know the VDC system on the Z is pretty heavy handed, but is it the case it kicks in when it shouldn't or just that it kicks in to a much higher degree than it should when it does kick in? If the former, it seems clear it slows the driver down since it activates in cases where it is not really necessary -- cutting power when it shouldn't have. If the latter, it may be that a good driver can drive at the edge, not have the VDC kick in and be just as fast as someone who drives with it off -- the downside is that if the driver makes a small error with the VDC on, then they pay for it more than if there error was small with the VDC off. I really don't know because the edge of traction is so high on our cars that most of the time I'm nowhere near the edge.

I had the most problems when I raced on francorchamps

I would come out of a corner in third and then I go WOT

and for some reason the VDC kicks in saying I didn't have enough traction and basically gave me a second lag before I accelerated

I always lol when im in fifth and im going WOT sometimes the VDC kicks in.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the VDC slowed you down unless someone could hit the corner via the same line with the VDC off go WOT and be faster. My guess is that WOT right at that APEX is not a good idea regardless of VDC settings.

Guys, come on. Our cars have power but not that much. Even with VDC off, I have to WANT the tail to break loose. That usually requires a throttle stop that my mind is saying "careful, you're doing this on purpose....carefuuuuuul" while I'm doing it. Driving around with VDC off in a spirited manner with smooth braking, cornering and acceleration won't suddenly whip-snap the car around on you. I've done multiple autoX events in the rain this summer, and it still takes a premature throttle mash coming out of a corner to get the backend loose. The short of it is this: we have very stable, capable cars. Even with VDC off, it takes an error in judgement or sheer determination to break the back end loose. Even on a track at the limit, it's very predictable and requires foolishness to upset the car. We'll see if I eat my words at the PDX this afternoon...

OP, where are the pics of your wrecked Z?

If you need VDC off during your daily driving because it's not letting you "test the limits" or "feel in tune with the car" you're doing it wrong.

It was after the apex. a straight.

I wouldn't dare WOTing on a apex.

I accidently clipped a apex after it rained. the car almost spun around.

I guess VDC saved me back then :roflpuke2:

ditto. since the first day i picked it up the first thing i do after the car is started is press the VDC button then put my seatbelt on. i dont even think about it anymore

ditto. I have the same reflex..

That said, the car will ALWAYS keep some VDC functions alive even if it is turned Off... Try it on a circuit and you will feel the VDC kicking in at the limit (meanly on uneven pavement).

Seems an unfortunate trend for people to treat the throttle like an On/Off switch. Learn and practice driving smoothly (doesn't mean you can't be aggressive) and VDC is just along for the ride. It won't trigger if your car control skills are good and your technique is smooth. I never took mine off, and never felt it was intrusive even playing hard in the mountains, but I don't drive like an a$$ everyday on the street either..

:iagree:

If i was an avid street racer, i would never leave it on. You never know when a challenge comes knocking, and its easy to forget VDC is on. But that would only be if i was a street racer, and we do not condone such activities here on this site :icon23:

Same thing here. I think I maybe have felt it kick in a half dozen times, and most of that was in snow.

FWIW I tested VDC in the mud today. Works pretty well. :)

I doubt the Nismo is that much different from another 6MT, but if its even a little wet, VDC triggers quite easily. Maybe its the Advans, the stiff clutch, the crazy stiff suspension, the extra HP or maybe its just my lead foot ;)

It seems the VDC in my Nismo triggers easily as well and I don't think I drive to aggressive.

To me, this question seems like that trap question, "Do these pants make my butt look big?" And the evil side of me always wants to answer, "No, your butt was already big."

So, does VDC make you a worse driver? No, you fail at driving with or without electronic assistance. :tup: :rofl2: