Has VDC made you a worse Z driver?

shadow2k · 08-12-2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nismolife

So has VDC allowed me to become a worse sports car driver?

Yes

VDC allows you to become lazy, and picks up the slack. It fixes your minor mistakes, where maybe you would have just fishtailed a little. It corrects that for you. Unfortunately, you now don't get that experience of learning just how far out you would have swung your ***, nor do you scare the piss out of yourself by almost crushing a fire hydrant with your car. So you don't learn as much as you would have. We learn the most from our mistakes.

I turn off VDC as a habit every time I get in the car. I don't go tearing up the streets, I have 13k mi on my OEM tires, and plenty to go. I just don't want the nanny messing with my driving.

Zsteve · 08-12-2010, 10:13 PM

VTC is just like other techno upgrades cars have gotten over the years. Did power steering make you a worse driver? Did better suspensions make you a worse driver? Etc. Technology is great and helps the overall driving experience IMO. I would much rather have all the high tech stuff and be able to push the car further to its limits than not have the stuff and not be able to obtain the same limits.

Wanna test your driving skills? Put a rocket on a soap box and drive it.

Zaggeron · 08-12-2010, 10:43 PM

^^ I agree

In general driver aids can increase performance -- of course it depends on how much of a nanny they are. F1 and other racing leagues would not disallow traction and stability controls if they made the drivers slower. The fact is they make the cars easier to drive faster. But the better funded teams with better simulation models would develop better traction control systems and hence have a technological advantage over the other drivers, that's why those systems are banned.

LunaZ · 08-12-2010, 10:50 PM

I think that VDC does indeed help you go faster, but it only makes you a "worse" driver if you allow yourself to tune out what your car is telling you.
I tend to be pretty smooth and intuitive with good feel... I laugh when traction control or ABS kick in just as I'm easing off the throttle or brake because I beat the computer to the punch :-)

Zaggeron · 08-12-2010, 10:57 PM

Yeah. I typically leave it on, but I try to judge when it would have kicked in. There are a few times when I first got the car that I've felt it kick in and I've adjusted my driving accordingly. You can still get feedback from the car, but instead of feedback from a minor mistake in the form of a bit of fishtail, you instead have to be sensitive to whether the VDC kicked in.

fullmonty · 08-13-2010, 12:43 AM

One of those live and learn things

Vegitto-kun · 08-13-2010, 06:52 AM

slightly relevant to this topic

ChrisSlicks · 08-13-2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

^^ I agree

In general driver aids can increase performance -- of course it depends on how much of a nanny they are. F1 and other racing leagues would not disallow traction and stability controls if they made the drivers slower. The fact is they make the cars easier to drive faster. But the better funded teams with better simulation models would develop better traction control systems and hence have a technological advantage over the other drivers, that's why those systems are banned.

Traction control was in F1 for many many years and the drivers were most definitely faster as a result. They would get to the apex of a corner and just mash the throttle and let the computer figure it out. The first year of the ban they were all a second a lap slower. But the TC systems that were used in F1 cost more than our damn car and can't really be directly compared. The Z is most definitely slower with TC on but it is safer, especially when you take into consideration the distractions that are constantly around us. Lots of auto-x is the way that I keep my edge. If it's raining I'm usually contending for FTD.

Zaggeron · 08-13-2010, 08:28 AM

^^ I know the VDC system on the Z is pretty heavy handed, but is it the case it kicks in when it shouldn't or just that it kicks in to a much higher degree than it should when it does kick in? If the former, it seems clear it slows the driver down since it activates in cases where it is not really necessary -- cutting power when it shouldn't have. If the latter, it may be that a good driver can drive at the edge, not have the VDC kick in and be just as fast as someone who drives with it off -- the downside is that if the driver makes a small error with the VDC on, then they pay for it more than if there error was small with the VDC off. I really don't know because the edge of traction is so high on our cars that most of the time I'm nowhere near the edge.

Vegitto-kun · 08-13-2010, 08:31 AM

I had the most problems when I raced on francorchamps

I would come out of a corner in third and then I go WOT

and for some reason the VDC kicks in saying I didn't have enough traction and basically gave me a second lag before I accelerated

I always lol when im in fifth and im going WOT sometimes the VDC kicks in.

Zaggeron · 08-13-2010, 08:35 AM

That doesn't necessarily mean that the VDC slowed you down unless someone could hit the corner via the same line with the VDC off go WOT and be faster. My guess is that WOT right at that APEX is not a good idea regardless of VDC settings.

spearfish25 · 08-13-2010, 09:28 AM

Guys, come on. Our cars have power but not that much. Even with VDC off, I have to WANT the tail to break loose. That usually requires a throttle stop that my mind is saying "careful, you're doing this on purpose....carefuuuuuul" while I'm doing it. Driving around with VDC off in a spirited manner with smooth braking, cornering and acceleration won't suddenly whip-snap the car around on you. I've done multiple autoX events in the rain this summer, and it still takes a premature throttle mash coming out of a corner to get the backend loose. The short of it is this: we have very stable, capable cars. Even with VDC off, it takes an error in judgement or sheer determination to break the back end loose. Even on a track at the limit, it's very predictable and requires foolishness to upset the car. We'll see if I eat my words at the PDX this afternoon...

TongMan · 08-13-2010, 09:32 AM

OP, where are the pics of your wrecked Z?

CBRich · 08-13-2010, 10:05 AM

If you need VDC off during your daily driving because it's not letting you "test the limits" or "feel in tune with the car" you're doing it wrong.

Vegitto-kun · 08-13-2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

That doesn't necessarily mean that the VDC slowed you down unless someone could hit the corner via the same line with the VDC off go WOT and be faster. My guess is that WOT right at that APEX is not a good idea regardless of VDC settings.

It was after the apex. a straight.

I wouldn't dare WOTing on a apex.

I accidently clipped a apex after it rained. the car almost spun around.

I guess VDC saved me back then

08-12-2010, 10:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
Zsteve A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: TX Posts: 3,298 Drives: the 2 balled club Rep Power: 22	VTC is just like other techno upgrades cars have gotten over the years. Did power steering make you a worse driver? Did better suspensions make you a worse driver? Etc. Technology is great and helps the overall driving experience IMO. I would much rather have all the high tech stuff and be able to push the car further to its limits than not have the stuff and not be able to obtain the same limits. Wanna test your driving skills? Put a rocket on a soap box and drive it. __________________ 2010 LS3 C6 Silver coupe corvette Last edited by Zsteve; 08-12-2010 at 10:35 PM.

08-12-2010, 10:43 PM	#18 (permalink)
Zaggeron A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,951 Drives: '10 370ZR '13 BRZ Rep Power: 18	^^ I agree In general driver aids can increase performance -- of course it depends on how much of a nanny they are. F1 and other racing leagues would not disallow traction and stability controls if they made the drivers slower. The fact is they make the cars easier to drive faster. But the better funded teams with better simulation models would develop better traction control systems and hence have a technological advantage over the other drivers, that's why those systems are banned. __________________ 2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

08-12-2010, 10:50 PM	#19 (permalink)
LunaZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Vagabond Posts: 6,704 Drives: Project: a white one Rep Power: 512	I think that VDC does indeed help you go faster, but it only makes you a "worse" driver if you allow yourself to tune out what your car is telling you. I tend to be pretty smooth and intuitive with good feel... I laugh when traction control or ABS kick in just as I'm easing off the throttle or brake because I beat the computer to the punch :-) __________________ 2009 370Z Sport/Touring/Navigation \| see my journal for mods facebook: Be my friend... or not.

08-12-2010, 10:57 PM	#20 (permalink)
Zaggeron A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,951 Drives: '10 370ZR '13 BRZ Rep Power: 18	Yeah. I typically leave it on, but I try to judge when it would have kicked in. There are a few times when I first got the car that I've felt it kick in and I've adjusted my driving accordingly. You can still get feedback from the car, but instead of feedback from a minor mistake in the form of a bit of fishtail, you instead have to be sensitive to whether the VDC kicked in. __________________ 2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

08-13-2010, 12:43 AM	#21 (permalink)
fullmonty A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dirty Jersey Posts: 7,762 Drives: 370 Touring/Sport Rep Power: 34	One of those live and learn things __________________

08-13-2010, 06:52 AM	#22 (permalink)
Vegitto-kun A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Posts: 2,011 Drives: 09 370Z Rep Power: 262	slightly relevant to this topic

08-13-2010, 08:28 AM	#24 (permalink)
Zaggeron A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,951 Drives: '10 370ZR '13 BRZ Rep Power: 18	^^ I know the VDC system on the Z is pretty heavy handed, but is it the case it kicks in when it shouldn't or just that it kicks in to a much higher degree than it should when it does kick in? If the former, it seems clear it slows the driver down since it activates in cases where it is not really necessary -- cutting power when it shouldn't have. If the latter, it may be that a good driver can drive at the edge, not have the VDC kick in and be just as fast as someone who drives with it off -- the downside is that if the driver makes a small error with the VDC on, then they pay for it more than if there error was small with the VDC off. I really don't know because the edge of traction is so high on our cars that most of the time I'm nowhere near the edge. __________________ 2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited Last edited by Zaggeron; 08-13-2010 at 08:32 AM.

08-13-2010, 08:31 AM	#25 (permalink)
Vegitto-kun A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Posts: 2,011 Drives: 09 370Z Rep Power: 262	I had the most problems when I raced on francorchamps I would come out of a corner in third and then I go WOT and for some reason the VDC kicks in saying I didn't have enough traction and basically gave me a second lag before I accelerated I always lol when im in fifth and im going WOT sometimes the VDC kicks in.

08-13-2010, 08:35 AM	#26 (permalink)
Zaggeron A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,951 Drives: '10 370ZR '13 BRZ Rep Power: 18	That doesn't necessarily mean that the VDC slowed you down unless someone could hit the corner via the same line with the VDC off go WOT and be faster. My guess is that WOT right at that APEX is not a good idea regardless of VDC settings. __________________ 2010 Platinum Graphite 370z Roadster:Touring/Sport 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited

08-13-2010, 09:28 AM	#27 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1856	Guys, come on. Our cars have power but not that much. Even with VDC off, I have to WANT the tail to break loose. That usually requires a throttle stop that my mind is saying "careful, you're doing this on purpose....carefuuuuuul" while I'm doing it. Driving around with VDC off in a spirited manner with smooth braking, cornering and acceleration won't suddenly whip-snap the car around on you. I've done multiple autoX events in the rain this summer, and it still takes a premature throttle mash coming out of a corner to get the backend loose. The short of it is this: we have very stable, capable cars. Even with VDC off, it takes an error in judgement or sheer determination to break the back end loose. Even on a track at the limit, it's very predictable and requires foolishness to upset the car. We'll see if I eat my words at the PDX this afternoon... __________________ 2013 Cadillac V-Wagon, RIP Z

08-13-2010, 09:32 AM	#28 (permalink)
TongMan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: NorCal Posts: 1,297 Drives: 2013 Nissan GTR Rep Power: 715	OP, where are the pics of your wrecked Z?

08-13-2010, 10:05 AM	#29 (permalink)
CBRich A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SC Posts: 2,464 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 544	If you need VDC off during your daily driving because it's not letting you "test the limits" or "feel in tune with the car" you're doing it wrong.

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