Comparison the z to a vette

rj45 · 05-26-2010, 04:05 PM

If GM lets the talented Corvette engineers make the next C7 chassis more rigid, so the car feels vault solid and high quality (my pops new Camaro feels much more rigid than my old C6 Z06), then lets the interior designers improve the interior quality and seat design, the Corvette will finally be a force to be reckoned with. The performance is there, they just need to amp up the total experience. If a $30K 370Z can feel solid (quite Porsche like, I'm pleased to say), a $50K Corvette can, too.

The 370Z also has a nice quality interior, IMO. The Corvette should, too. Most Corvettes list for mid-to-upper $50s, for that kind of money the car should be better. You shouldn't have to spent $8K on an option package to get some (much needed) leather on the dash and doors. Not for anything, but most new Corvettes list for as much as a new 5 series, and look at the car BMW gives you. Not to mention, a $70K+ M3 or 550i isn't way out of the ballpark either...a new Grandsport coupe or C6 convertible are easily optioned up into the mid-upper $60Ks. A GS convertible can top $70K.

Now that the American car companies are streamlining their operations and cutting excessive spending, I hope that translates into better built American cars...cars we all know they can build..in a heartbeat (pun intended).

Lug · 05-26-2010, 04:50 PM

The Vette puts all it's efforts to handling and power to weight ratio. Not a bad thing for a sports car. There is nothing anywhere near it's price point that can perform like the base Vette. That's why "feel" and "interior quality" suddenly become so important when discussing it, because the numbers just don't lie.

nuTinmuch · 05-26-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j.arnaldo

Chevrolet Corvette: "Much worse than average" reliability history. CR mpg (averaged 'tween city and highway driving): 21.

Nissan 370Z: "Much better than average" reliability history. CR mpg (averaged 'tween city and highway driving): 23.

I have the 2010 Consumer Reports Buying Guide issue on my lap as I transcribe this data, guys...Sorry. Reality bites.
Still, if you prefer the 'Vette, GO FOR IT. That's the beauty of capitalism, i.e. the govm't cant impose a "Lada" on you (for those of you who don't know, the Lada was an abysmally BAD Russian vehicle widely distributed in Cuba and Russia, back in the '70s and part of the '80s. It was a PIECE OF JUNK!) Myself, I own an '04 Z, whose only repair has been the driver's side power window motor. In December of this year, she'll be 7 years old, and it behaves like a 2009 model! Her original owner got her then. Greetings!

Consumer Reports also heavily knocks the WRX and STi for "reliability" issues because of a engine problem that was acknowledges and fixed. It literally does not exist at all anymore and they -still report it-.

CR might be okay for buying a Toyota, but not a performance vehicle, sorry!

rj45 · 05-26-2010, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

The Vette puts all it's efforts to handling and power to weight ratio. Not a bad thing for a sports car. There is nothing anywhere near it's price point that can perform like the base Vette. That's why "feel" and "interior quality" suddenly become so important when discussing it, because the numbers just don't lie.

You're right about the bang for the buck. The Corvette is fast/handles well for the money. But...what if Nissan dropped their V8 into the Z? The car would be as fast as the Corvette, cost about the same, yet still offer its advantages in solidity, fit-and-finish, etc. The Corvette would then be lacking value in comparison. GM places the standard Corvette in its own category, there is no direct competition, per-say. But, that doesn't mean you sacrifice quality. You never know when the competition will sneak up on you. IMO, GM shouldn't turn current buyers off in any way. Why have customers yearning for a better package, because one day the competition just may offer it.

IMO, as it stands, there's not a (roughly) $12K-15K difference in effort between the current 370 and C6. The Corvette is built using mostly normal materials (excluding the Z06 and ZR1, of course), equipped with a relatively low-tech V8 and boasts average sport-suspension tuning...i.e., really no more effort than the Nissan designers put into the Z. Plus, GM offers the Corvette with plenty of optional amenities, it's really not a bare bones, pure sports car (like a Lotus, for example). And you're not buying exclusivity, either...GM builds plenty of Corvettes, roughly 30K-40K a year.

The Corvette is aimed at enthusiasts with a few dollars. They can appreciate quality and performance. Point being, if GM wants to keep future Corvettes priced where they currently are, they need to up the quality a good notch or two. The Corvette does sell, but how long can GM hold off the competition?

nuTinmuch · 05-26-2010, 06:15 PM

The majority of people who buy Corvettes do not care about interior refinement at all.

I understand what you are saying but it's like saying "well the WRX/Evo/Cobalt SS/MS3/etc. feels cheap"

yes, yes it does and no one who is going to buy one cares

rj45 · 05-26-2010, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

The majority of people who buy Corvettes do not care about interior refinement at all.

I understand what you are saying but it's like saying "well the WRX/Evo/Cobalt SS/MS3/etc. feels cheap"

yes, yes it does and no one who is going to buy one cares

I wouldn't say the majority... some don't care. I didn't read the C6 forum that much, but the Z06 forum included plenty of remarks about the lack of quality, the owners just tolerate it...that's not the same as not caring. Even the ZR1...I've read that guys have bought and already sold the car because - even taking the performance into consideration - it just doesn't feel like the money. There is a market for a quality Corvette. Look, I'm not saying the Corvette is a POS, it's far from it, but it should be better for the $$.

I'm sure there are buyers that looked at the C6, but purchased a Cayman S because they decided to give up some speed for quality. They look at a Corvette for upper $50s - low $60s and realize they can get into the Porsche for not much more. Cayman S's run 13.0/108 quarters...they're not old slow Boxsters, anymore.

I had an '08 STi before the Z. It was a nice car, I wouldn't say it was cheap, but it was a bit lacking in quality for nearly $40K. An Evo MR is in the mid $40Ks, these days. Very few boy-racers can afford the cars, now. The new, more mature buyers want some quality, too.

I agree with you, though, the MS3 is a lot of car for $25K. Decent quality, racy looks, and good performance. The base WRX has a decent performance/quality/price ratio, too.

Lug · 05-27-2010, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

You're right about the bang for the buck. The Corvette is fast/handles well for the money. But...what if Nissan dropped their V8 into the Z? The car would be as fast as the Corvette

It would have to have more HP (> 430) since it would weigh quite a bit more. The truely remarkable thing about the Vette is it's curb weight. It weighs almost exactly what the 370Z does.......with a 6.2 liter engine. The more expensive Vettes are actually much lighter than the Z. The Vette's frame is it's magic.

Mike · 05-27-2010, 06:20 PM

If you care about interior quality, GM does offer an interior with a full linen/leather wrap that is pretty darn nice.

nitromt · 05-27-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

You're right about the bang for the buck. The Corvette is fast/handles well for the money. But...what if Nissan dropped their V8 into the Z? The car would be as fast as the Corvette, cost about the same, yet still offer its advantages in solidity, fit-and-finish, etc. The Corvette would then be lacking value in comparison. GM places the standard Corvette in its own category, there is no direct competition, per-say. But, that doesn't mean you sacrifice quality. You never know when the competition will sneak up on you. IMO, GM shouldn't turn current buyers off in any way. Why have customers yearning for a better package, because one day the competition just may offer it.

IMO, as it stands, there's not a (roughly) $12K-15K difference in effort between the current 370 and C6. The Corvette is built using mostly normal materials (excluding the Z06 and ZR1, of course), equipped with a relatively low-tech V8 and boasts average sport-suspension tuning...i.e., really no more effort than the Nissan designers put into the Z. Plus, GM offers the Corvette with plenty of optional amenities, it's really not a bare bones, pure sports car (like a Lotus, for example). And you're not buying exclusivity, either...GM builds plenty of Corvettes, roughly 30K-40K a year.

The Corvette is aimed at enthusiasts with a few dollars. They can appreciate quality and performance. Point being, if GM wants to keep future Corvettes priced where they currently are, they need to up the quality a good notch or two. The Corvette does sell, but how long can GM hold off the competition?

So it's just that easy right? Just slap on/drop in a V8 and BAM! Poof! It makes a car magically better?

If that was the case, how much more expensive do you think the 370z (wait....570z) would be?

I mean let's just forget about: chassis design, balance, transmission, suspension, emissions, etc. etc. All these components would most likely need to be redesigned --> brand new car.

...the point is it's not as easy as just "dropping in" a larger engine. There are tremendous costs associated with such and if Nissan thought they could make a profit and undercut the Corvette in price while still delivering value, don't you think they would have done it already?

As for the last part, how long can Nissan hold off the competition? (I'm pretty sure in terms of performance, the competition aka 2011 Mustang GT has already surpassed the 370Z while at the same time being less expensive).

Lug · 05-27-2010, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitromt

So it's just that easy right? Just slap on/drop in a V8 and BAM! Poof! It makes a car magically better?

If that was the case, how much more expensive do you think the 370z (wait....570z) would be?

I mean let's just forget about: chassis design, balance, transmission, suspension, emissions, etc. etc. All these components would most likely need to be redesigned --> brand new car.

...the point is it's not as easy as just "dropping in" a larger engine. There are tremendous costs associated with such and if Nissan thought they could make a profit and undercut the Corvette in price while still delivering value, don't you think they would have done it already?

As for the last part, how long can Nissan hold off the competition? (I'm pretty sure in terms of performance, the competition aka 2011 Mustang GT has already surpassed the 370Z while at the same time being less expensive).

Actually, they are priced almost identically (for the 'stang V8)

rj45 · 05-28-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitromt

So it's just that easy right? Just slap on/drop in a V8 and BAM! Poof! It makes a car magically better?

If that was the case, how much more expensive do you think the 370z (wait....570z) would be?

I mean let's just forget about: chassis design, balance, transmission, suspension, emissions, etc. etc. All these components would most likely need to be redesigned --> brand new car.

...the point is it's not as easy as just "dropping in" a larger engine. There are tremendous costs associated with such and if Nissan thought they could make a profit and undercut the Corvette in price while still delivering value, don't you think they would have done it already?

As for the last part, how long can Nissan hold off the competition? (I'm pretty sure in terms of performance, the competition aka 2011 Mustang GT has already surpassed the 370Z while at the same time being less expensive).

My point was, if planned properly, Nissan could offer a Z with V8 power for a price similar to the Corvette's, and it would be an altogether nicer car. I wasn't suggesting Nissan take the current car and just drop a V8 into it, like a backyard mechanic. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to offer cars/trucks with both V6 and V8 power. Take the Mustang you mentioned. I realize design changes and certifications would be needed, but they're not monumental tasks.

Probably what Nissan is thinking is they don't want a two seat sports car in the $50K+ range. They're hard to sell and make money with. The GT-R is an expensive car, but it's a halo car for them, not a money maker. They want to make money with the Z. The Corvette's got a rare piece of the market.

IMO, Nissan wants to offer a car with performance and feel comparable to an entry level Porsche, but at a cheaper price...and that's what the Z does. Nissan probably worries that at $50K-$60K for a V8 Z, the buyer will gravitate to the Porsche, even with the Porsche's power disadvantage.

The bottom line is...if Nissan could build a quality V8 Z for Corvette money - and they could if they wanted to, IMO - GM can build a higher quality Corvette. At $55K for the average Corvette, the car should be better. Look at the nice little GTI VW sells for $25K. Tight as a drum with a high quality interior that puts the Corvette's to shame.

Lug · 05-28-2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

My point was, if planned properly, Nissan could offer a Z with V8 power for a price similar to the Corvette's, and it would be an altogether nicer car. I wasn't suggesting Nissan take the current car and just drop a V8 into it, like a backyard mechanic. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to offer cars/trucks with both V6 and V8 power. Take the Mustang you mentioned. I realize design changes and certifications would be needed, but they're not monumental tasks.

Probably what Nissan is thinking is they don't want a two seat sports car in the $50K+ range. They're hard to sell and make money with. The GT-R is an expensive car, but it's a halo car for them, not a money maker. They want to make money with the Z. The Corvette's got a rare piece of the market.

IMO, Nissan wants to offer a car with performance and feel comparable to an entry level Porsche, but at a cheaper price...and that's what the Z does. Nissan probably worries that at $50K-$60K for a V8 Z, the buyer will gravitate to the Porsche, even with the Porsche's power disadvantage.

The bottom line is...if Nissan could build a quality V8 Z for Corvette money - and they could if they wanted to, IMO - GM can build a higher quality Corvette. At $55K for the average Corvette, the car should be better. Look at the nice little GTI VW sells for $25K. Tight as a drum with a high quality interior that puts the Corvette's to shame.

Corvettes can easily be picked up for 42k to 45K, full MSPR for a base Vette is only 48K. I don't know where you are getting $55K as average unless you are talking about the convertable.

nitromt · 05-28-2010, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

Actually, they are priced almost identically (for the 'stang V8)

I stand corrected. You are right. I just double checked USAA comparing a '11 Mustang GT and a 370z 6MT w/ Sport package and they are roughly within $1000 of each other. Pricing must have changed within the past month as I recall the 370z being significantly more expensive earlier in the ear. FYI, there is $500 bonus cash now for the 370z.

nitromt · 05-28-2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

My point was, if planned properly, Nissan could offer a Z with V8 power for a price similar to the Corvette's, and it would be an altogether nicer car. I wasn't suggesting Nissan take the current car and just drop a V8 into it, like a backyard mechanic. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to offer cars/trucks with both V6 and V8 power. Take the Mustang you mentioned. I realize design changes and certifications would be needed, but they're not monumental tasks.

Probably what Nissan is thinking is they don't want a two seat sports car in the $50K+ range. They're hard to sell and make money with. The GT-R is an expensive car, but it's a halo car for them, not a money maker. They want to make money with the Z. The Corvette's got a rare piece of the market.

IMO, Nissan wants to offer a car with performance and feel comparable to an entry level Porsche, but at a cheaper price...and that's what the Z does. Nissan probably worries that at $50K-$60K for a V8 Z, the buyer will gravitate to the Porsche, even with the Porsche's power disadvantage.

The bottom line is...if Nissan could build a quality V8 Z for Corvette money - and they could if they wanted to, IMO - GM can build a higher quality Corvette. At $55K for the average Corvette, the car should be better. Look at the nice little GTI VW sells for $25K. Tight as a drum with a high quality interior that puts the Corvette's to shame.

That clears it up.

It is true the Corvette's interior leaves much to be desired, but coming from the interior of the C5 to the C6 - no one is complaining too loudly.

As for Corvette pricing, we should really refer to forum venders at Corvette C6 - C1 Reviews, Performance, Parts For Sale - CorvetteForum.com. Places like Kerbeck Corvettes usually offers great deals.

Kerbeck Corvette | Corvettes for Sale | #1 Largest Corvette Dealer!

rj45 · 05-28-2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lug

Corvettes can easily be picked up for 42k to 45K, full MSPR for a base Vette is only 48K. I don't know where you are getting $55K as average unless you are talking about the convertable.

I'm talking about the average Corvette's MSRP. I used to live 15 minutes away from Kerbeck (where I bought my Z06)...at any one time they have 100 - 150 new Corvettes in stock. I would often check them out while waiting for service or on a Sunday. $48K is MSRP for a base coupe, true, but most were optioned well into the $50K range. Convertibles easily get into the $60K range. Between the option packages (2LT, 3LT, etc.), wheels, paint, transparent roof, etc., the MSRP goes up quickly.

05-26-2010, 04:05 PM	#46 (permalink)
rj45 Base Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: USA Posts: 60 Drives: 40th Anniversary Z Rep Power: 15	If GM lets the talented Corvette engineers make the next C7 chassis more rigid, so the car feels vault solid and high quality (my pops new Camaro feels much more rigid than my old C6 Z06), then lets the interior designers improve the interior quality and seat design, the Corvette will finally be a force to be reckoned with. The performance is there, they just need to amp up the total experience. If a $30K 370Z can feel solid (quite Porsche like, I'm pleased to say), a $50K Corvette can, too. The 370Z also has a nice quality interior, IMO. The Corvette should, too. Most Corvettes list for mid-to-upper $50s, for that kind of money the car should be better. You shouldn't have to spent $8K on an option package to get some (much needed) leather on the dash and doors. Not for anything, but most new Corvettes list for as much as a new 5 series, and look at the car BMW gives you. Not to mention, a $70K+ M3 or 550i isn't way out of the ballpark either...a new Grandsport coupe or C6 convertible are easily optioned up into the mid-upper $60Ks. A GS convertible can top $70K. Now that the American car companies are streamlining their operations and cutting excessive spending, I hope that translates into better built American cars...cars we all know they can build..in a heartbeat (pun intended). Last edited by rj45; 05-26-2010 at 05:15 PM.

05-26-2010, 04:50 PM	#47 (permalink)
Lug A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,926 Drives: 2006 350Z Rep Power: 19	The Vette puts all it's efforts to handling and power to weight ratio. Not a bad thing for a sports car. There is nothing anywhere near it's price point that can perform like the base Vette. That's why "feel" and "interior quality" suddenly become so important when discussing it, because the numbers just don't lie. __________________ keep Chubbs in your pocket - Chubbs

05-26-2010, 06:15 PM	#50 (permalink)
nuTinmuch A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,092 Drives: PG 7AT 370Z Rep Power: 17	The majority of people who buy Corvettes do not care about interior refinement at all. I understand what you are saying but it's like saying "well the WRX/Evo/Cobalt SS/MS3/etc. feels cheap" yes, yes it does and no one who is going to buy one cares __________________ nuTinmuch! -- Platinum Graphite 370Z -- Check out my Gallery thread here!

05-27-2010, 06:20 PM	#53 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	If you care about interior quality, GM does offer an interior with a full linen/leather wrap that is pretty darn nice. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

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