Follow-up analysis to Car & Driver crashing Nismo 370Z at VIR

daleks · 05-03-2010, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

To do it right someone needs to develop a backing plate to replace or modify the stock rotor backing plate so that air can be forced around the back of the hub and and through the rotor veins. The stock fang area can be used as an intake.

Pushing air into the wheel well area would also help.

Did you cut back your backing plate when the AP BBK was installed? I know it's common to do so when installing a BBK. Also, sometimes I think it can even be removed if I'm not mistaken. If the backing plate is cut back (or removed) such that it doesn't reduce the airflow to the interior perimeter of the rotor, then the veins should be able to suck in fresh air just fine. Yes, a backing plate with a duct to incoming air would be ideal however.

klubbheads · 05-04-2010, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

If you upgrade all of the above the brakes may survive a track session when driven conservatively, however it wont survive a track session when flat out for 30 minutes. I've upgraded to the AP Racing kit and even those ultimately suffer the same fate, badly needs cooling vents.

Many of the harder drivers here have experienced the problem, and no there is none of the typical fade warnings before you get there.

interesting...... So you saying there is no smell, smoke and longer brake pedal travel before the brakes give out????????

Ricochet48 · 05-04-2010, 01:59 AM

Well I read through this thread, so I thought I've give my $.02

Nissan's Nismo marketing
I feel that terms like 'race-bred' and 'track-ready' are not that misleading. It doesn't say 'time-attack ready' or 'competitive racing.' Compared to 90% of cars on the road, if you take it to the track for some 'thrills' (as one member mentioned earlier), it will keep up alright

Comparison
I have raced my RSX-S at the Autobahn in Joliet (full 3.56 22 turn course) from 10AM - 8:30PM going through 4 tanks of gas WITH STOCK BRAKES and only basic suspension work. I kept up the entire day with cars outside my league and had an amazing time. I didn't go through a set of tires or kill my rotors...sure I gave the K20 abuse, but it's still riding beautifully

Needless to say, this year I'm going to get new rotors, SS lines, and Motul 600, but this is beside the point.

Marketing to Who?
I wish we could get a thread somewhere on who actually races their car and to what extent. I know by me, I recognize most people at the SCCA races and tracking is uber expensive so I'd assume that 1/10 of the SCCA-goers even track. Therefore, I agree that Nissan should not have put an oil cooler in. I think they should warranty and back their Nismo (or w/e) cooler though. If the breaks are dangerous, this issue should be address, but they will never be, nor claim to be, at the true 'track-level' of BBK's and race setups.

ChrisSlicks · 05-04-2010, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

interesting...... So you saying there is no smell, smoke and longer brake pedal travel before the brakes give out????????

Smells are very hard to determine at track speed. Everyone that has attempted the track has at least upgraded fluid, and most have upgraded pads. Nobody has boiled their fluid after doing those 2 things, and pedal feel remains firm.

The upgraded pads hold up about 80% better than the stock ones because they can handle the higher temperatures. But because of the poor ventilation the heat just soaks everything, and temperatures just climb.

klubbheads · 05-04-2010, 11:40 AM

^ok if that is true then that is some scary stuff. I'm going to the track before winter (by that time i will have the oil cooler and enough miles to let it rip for extended periods of time), im gonna keep that in mind.

On my G sedan stock sized brakes i did the lines, fluid, pads, and stoptech rotors and they held up pretty well for 7 strait laps at Big Willow.

Kyle@STILLEN · 05-04-2010, 12:08 PM

Every now and then I will take off my STILLEN hat and make posts that have nothing to do with the company and are only related to my personal thoughts on a subject...This is one of those times.

I have spent almost all of my life around cars. Whether it be watching my Dad race in the IMSA series or helping clean the windscreen of his car all the way up to working on the pit crew of one of the local NASCAR sanctioned series in our area. I've also built/prepared and raced/driven numerous different types of vehicle's...Off-road prepared desert trucks, go-carts, formula cars, tube chassis race cars...Even dirtbikes and streetbikes...I have been very fortunate to have a pretty high speed life. The most important thing I learned from all of that...Preparation and expectations are key.

If you are going to go to the race track, prepare your car. It's just like taking your car to a show. Before the show you wash it, detail it, and get everything perfect. Well, before you go to the race track you better go through all the key points...brake fluid upgrade, oil cooler upgrade, brake pad check, brake rotor check...and more! Before I go to the race track I do a nut and bolt check on every component of the suspension. I also look under the car for any leaks or loose bolts or loose body panels, hoses too close to anything...Basically just a general inspection. Check your tire pressures, check your lug nuts...

Going to a race track in any car, without proper preparation is asking for a problem. I'll admit that my practices are probably overkill but having seen some of the things I've seen, in my opinion it's worth it to me to take an hour or two to prepare the vehicle I'm about go 100+ MPH in...

If you think about it, every vehicle on the road is "race-bred." Every vehicle has adapted some form of racing technology to work for street use...For example, I would not take a Ferrari F430 from the showroom to the race track..."But Kyle, it's a Ferrari!!!" Yea...it's still a car that was never intended to go to the race track every day. Can it be driven on the track? Yes, but to push it to 10/10ths you're going to need to properly prepare it. Even if those preparations are minor, there will still be some work to do to it...

xfrgtr · 05-04-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

Every now and then I will take off my STILLEN hat and make posts that have nothing to do with the company and are only related to my personal thoughts on a subject...This is one of those times.

I have spent almost all of my life around cars. Whether it be watching my Dad race in the IMSA series or helping clean the windscreen of his car all the way up to working on the pit crew of one of the local NASCAR sanctioned series in our area. I've also built/prepared and raced/driven numerous different types of vehicle's...Off-road prepared desert trucks, go-carts, formula cars, tube chassis race cars...Even dirtbikes and streetbikes...I have been very fortunate to have a pretty high speed life. The most important thing I learned from all of that...Preparation and expectations are key.

If you are going to go to the race track, prepare your car. It's just like taking your car to a show. Before the show you wash it, detail it, and get everything perfect. Well, before you go to the race track you better go through all the key points...brake fluid upgrade, oil cooler upgrade, brake pad check, brake rotor check...and more! Before I go to the race track I do a nut and bolt check on every component of the suspension. I also look under the car for any leaks or loose bolts or loose body panels, hoses too close to anything...Basically just a general inspection. Check your tire pressures, check your lug nuts...

Going to a race track in any car, without proper preparation is asking for a problem. I'll admit that my practices are probably overkill but having seen some of the things I've seen, in my opinion it's worth it to me to take an hour or two to prepare the vehicle I'm about go 100+ MPH in...

If you think about it, every vehicle on the road is "race-bred." Every vehicle has adapted some form of racing technology to work for street use...For example, I would not take a Ferrari F430 from the showroom to the race track..."But Kyle, it's a Ferrari!!!" Yea...it's still a car that was never intended to go to the race track every day. Can it be driven on the track? Yes, but to push it to 10/10ths you're going to need to properly prepare it. Even if those preparations are minor, there will still be some work to do to it...

WICKED_GRIN · 05-04-2010, 03:10 PM

^^Totally

ChrisSlicks · 05-04-2010, 04:17 PM

^^^ I agree with the completely as well.

However there are some strange issues in the braking department with the car that need to be resolved. Some of them can be solved by vendors, 1 however can only be solved by Nissan. Until then I have more confidence in the drum brakes of a Yugo than I do in the Z.

kannibul · 05-04-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

^^^ I agree with the completely as well.

However there are some strange issues in the braking department with the car that need to be resolved. Some of them can be solved by vendors, 1 however can only be solved by Nissan. Until then I have more confidence in the drum brakes of a Yugo than I do in the Z.

That's pretty harsh and unwarranted, IMO.

Mike · 05-04-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

All this panic.... wow.

I would love to hear someone that actually tracked the car hard nismo or not with sports package. If you have i'm assuming you did have hi temp fluid, steel braded lines, and race pads because that is what you would do to any car that goes to the track let it be a vette or a toyota camry.

If anyone falls into this category then you are welcome to give your input here. The rest of the thread is full of panic and assumption based on an article that was published to justify the stupidity of the test driver that failed to realise that brakes are fading i better slow the fvck down.....

Akebonos not up to heavy track use!

I have. I was using
-Valvoline synthetic fluid at the time, (which I successfully used on my 350Z and my C6 for the last 5 years of track usage).
-Hawk HP+ pads up front (highly recommend against them on this car)
-Stock rear pads

Boiled fluid, wore the rear pads to backing plates and scored the rear rotors and halfway wore the front pads down in one 20 minute session.

Once I switched to HP+ all around, I still had the boiling problem on the same track, but a little farther into the sessions.

When these brakes boil the fluid, you might get a tiny hint of a soft pedal at the first turn, but by the next, they are pretty much gone. Its really sudden and scary when it happens.

I haven't had the problem running Brembo GT calipers up front now and Carbotech XP-12/XP-10 pads with Motul fluid. I think the added mass of the GT caliper helps, but we really do need additional cooling.

MightyBobo · 05-04-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Akebonos not up to heavy track use!

I have. I was using
-Valvoline synthetic fluid at the time, (which I successfully used on my 350Z and my C6 for the last 5 years of track usage).
-Hawk HP+ pads up front (highly recommend against them on this car)
-Stock rear pads

Boiled fluid, wore the rear pads to backing plates and scored the rear rotors and halfway wore the front pads down in one 20 minute session.

Once I switched to HP+ all around, I still had the boiling problem on the same track, but a little farther into the sessions.

When these brakes boil the fluid, you might get a tiny hint of a soft pedal at the first turn, but by the next, they are pretty much gone. Its really sudden and scary when it happens.

I haven't had the problem running Brembo GT calipers up front now and Carbotech XP-12/XP-10 pads with Motul fluid. I think the added mass of the GT caliper helps, but we really do need additional cooling.

I wouldn't consider HP+'s track pads, but that's me. Actually, the mere fact that you were only running HP+ front, and stock rear kinda scares me dude lol.

I fall into this category also. I ran:

MOTUL RBF600 fluid (what DOT fluid was that, that you ran anyway?)
Carbotech XP10 front/XP8 rear
Stock brake lines - didnt touch them.

Nothing else.

I had 0 problems. My brakes felt fantastic all of my sessions. My fluid never boiled. Now, while I'm still fairly newb-ish, I certainly wasn't THAT easy on the brakes.

klubbheads · 05-04-2010, 05:55 PM

^interesting inputs. I guess for someone that is really hard on brakes, these breaks or the cooling of them is not enough no matter the fluid, pads or even brakes themselves. I guess i myself will have to find out in about 6 months....

Mike · 05-04-2010, 06:24 PM

Bobo, I always successfully ran hp+ on the last two cars with no problems until right before I got rid of the vette when an alms driver took me for a ride and they just started to fadewith h driving after 20 minutes. I didn't
like stock pads on the rear either, but they didn't com e in on time for that event

ChrisSlicks · 05-04-2010, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyBobo

MOTUL RBF600 fluid (what DOT fluid was that, that you ran anyway?)

Valvoline synthetic was a DOT 4+ good for 502 dry, it was the best stuff you could find at crappy parts stores like AutoZone and actually it wasn't bad.

They don't make it anymore.

05-04-2010, 01:59 AM	#78 (permalink)
Ricochet48 Base Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Darien, IL Posts: 117 Drives: 06 Acura RSX Type S Rep Power: 17	Well I read through this thread, so I thought I've give my $.02 Nissan's Nismo marketing I feel that terms like 'race-bred' and 'track-ready' are not that misleading. It doesn't say 'time-attack ready' or 'competitive racing.' Compared to 90% of cars on the road, if you take it to the track for some 'thrills' (as one member mentioned earlier), it will keep up alright Comparison I have raced my RSX-S at the Autobahn in Joliet (full 3.56 22 turn course) from 10AM - 8:30PM going through 4 tanks of gas WITH STOCK BRAKES and only basic suspension work. I kept up the entire day with cars outside my league and had an amazing time. I didn't go through a set of tires or kill my rotors...sure I gave the K20 abuse, but it's still riding beautifully Needless to say, this year I'm going to get new rotors, SS lines, and Motul 600, but this is beside the point. Marketing to Who? I wish we could get a thread somewhere on who actually races their car and to what extent. I know by me, I recognize most people at the SCCA races and tracking is uber expensive so I'd assume that 1/10 of the SCCA-goers even track. Therefore, I agree that Nissan should not have put an oil cooler in. I think they should warranty and back their Nismo (or w/e) cooler though. If the breaks are dangerous, this issue should be address, but they will never be, nor claim to be, at the true 'track-level' of BBK's and race setups. __________________ I feel like some RWD and torque!

05-04-2010, 11:40 AM	#80 (permalink)
klubbheads Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 221 Drives: Very slow Nismo 370 Rep Power: 16	^ok if that is true then that is some scary stuff. I'm going to the track before winter (by that time i will have the oil cooler and enough miles to let it rip for extended periods of time), im gonna keep that in mind. On my G sedan stock sized brakes i did the lines, fluid, pads, and stoptech rotors and they held up pretty well for 7 strait laps at Big Willow. __________________ g35driver OG.

05-04-2010, 04:17 PM	#84 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	^^^ I agree with the completely as well. However there are some strange issues in the braking department with the car that need to be resolved. Some of them can be solved by vendors, 1 however can only be solved by Nissan. Until then I have more confidence in the drum brakes of a Yugo than I do in the Z. __________________ Hotchkis ARB \| Stillen CAI \| Art Pipes \| Berk CBE \| Stillen AP Racing Brakes \| AE Performance Oil Cooler \| BC Racing ER Coilovers \| Doran Control Arms

05-04-2010, 05:55 PM	#88 (permalink)
klubbheads Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 221 Drives: Very slow Nismo 370 Rep Power: 16	^interesting inputs. I guess for someone that is really hard on brakes, these breaks or the cooling of them is not enough no matter the fluid, pads or even brakes themselves. I guess i myself will have to find out in about 6 months.... __________________ g35driver OG.

05-04-2010, 06:24 PM	#89 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	Bobo, I always successfully ran hp+ on the last two cars with no problems until right before I got rid of the vette when an alms driver took me for a ride and they just started to fadewith h driving after 20 minutes. I didn't like stock pads on the rear either, but they didn't com e in on time for that event __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

05-04-2010, 12:08 PM	#81 (permalink)
Kyle@STILLEN The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Newport Beach Posts: 626 Drives: Toyota Tundra Rep Power: 307	Every now and then I will take off my STILLEN hat and make posts that have nothing to do with the company and are only related to my personal thoughts on a subject...This is one of those times. I have spent almost all of my life around cars. Whether it be watching my Dad race in the IMSA series or helping clean the windscreen of his car all the way up to working on the pit crew of one of the local NASCAR sanctioned series in our area. I've also built/prepared and raced/driven numerous different types of vehicle's...Off-road prepared desert trucks, go-carts, formula cars, tube chassis race cars...Even dirtbikes and streetbikes...I have been very fortunate to have a pretty high speed life. The most important thing I learned from all of that...Preparation and expectations are key. If you are going to go to the race track, prepare your car. It's just like taking your car to a show. Before the show you wash it, detail it, and get everything perfect. Well, before you go to the race track you better go through all the key points...brake fluid upgrade, oil cooler upgrade, brake pad check, brake rotor check...and more! Before I go to the race track I do a nut and bolt check on every component of the suspension. I also look under the car for any leaks or loose bolts or loose body panels, hoses too close to anything...Basically just a general inspection. Check your tire pressures, check your lug nuts... Going to a race track in any car, without proper preparation is asking for a problem. I'll admit that my practices are probably overkill but having seen some of the things I've seen, in my opinion it's worth it to me to take an hour or two to prepare the vehicle I'm about go 100+ MPH in... If you think about it, every vehicle on the road is "race-bred." Every vehicle has adapted some form of racing technology to work for street use...For example, I would not take a Ferrari F430 from the showroom to the race track..."But Kyle, it's a Ferrari!!!" Yea...it's still a car that was never intended to go to the race track every day. Can it be driven on the track? Yes, but to push it to 10/10ths you're going to need to properly prepare it. Even if those preparations are minor, there will still be some work to do to it...

05-04-2010, 03:10 PM	#83 (permalink)
WICKED_GRIN Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New England Posts: 466 Drives: 370Z Roadster Black Rep Power: 16	^^Totally

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