Follow-up analysis to Car & Driver crashing Nismo 370Z at VIR

rj45 · 05-03-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

I disagree. There is a sinister problem with the brakes and I don't believe it will be an easy fix, it is downright dangerous when driven with passion (even on the street) for an extended period of time and this is above and beyond the overheating issue.

If this is indeed the reality, then Nissan should fix the design flaw, no question.

Although, exclusive of this Car and Driver/Nismo mishap, I don't remember reading a Z road test/comparison test that panned the car's brakes. Not saying these mags are the authority, but Id think one of them would have mentioned unusually bad brake fade/performance during testing.

Bottom line, though, if the Z's basic brake design/setup is a proven safety issue, the manufacturer should step up.

Kyle@STILLEN · 05-03-2010, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

how about availability for the ducts for my new bumper?

Although, I must say that I have had no boiling fluid issues since switching to Motul and brembo 6 pistons. I think its the mass of the calipers saving the day though.

I just saw the first production set of fangs/ducts last week. We will have them on our car on display at our open house this coming weekend. They probably won't have the ducts run yet (time crunch) but everything else will be in place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird

Josh at Stillen: I really need the new brake vents to be compatible with your new fascia. The new fascia and NISMO rear and Siebon hood go on this week.pp

No matter what we do with our fascia, our cooling kit will be compatible. Also, the vents/scoops that we designed specifically for the fascia are completed and will be shipping very soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mize

Kyle said they have ducts for the new fascia... (top of this page)

That could be the clincher for me buying the new fascia.

Also, why couldn't someone make ducts that mount to the fake holes outside the sharkteeth and route air directly to the pads? That would be a cheap solution, although it would mean cutting the stock fascia.

I'm looking into a third option (less expensive kit) for the people who want to stick with the factory fascia and don't want to go with our more elaborate cooling kit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuszNissan

Come on J hook Brake kit

We're very excited about this too!!! Shhhh....

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Send it to Car & Driver

never mind Road & track will get pissed.

We plan on sending our car to numerous magazine's including Road and Track, Car and Driver, Automobile, and many, many more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

No way in hell would I pay that much.

That's actually not a bad price for a complete GT R brake job...Sad...but true...

370Zsteve · 05-03-2010, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

I doubt Nissan's marketing intent is to promot the Nismo as being track-ready...maybe track oriented...but not track-ready.

Source: Nissanusa.com

Purpose-built and passionately engineered, the NISMO 370Z™ features race-bred, factory-tuned, extreme Nissan performance parts and accessories.

____________________

Also, Nissan never repudiated many mags, blogs, etc that were referring to the car as "track-ready". On a Google search of "Nismo 370Z track ready", I came up with tons of links.

kannibul · 05-03-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

One thing though... when you walk into a nissan dealership looking at Z's dealers love talking about the nismo, they Love stressing its track readiness. So I would have to agree that nissan is misleading... then again so is everyone else in the auto industry. I mean. They call the GTi a sports car? Lol. The 370z is a sports car but it needs personal touches to cater to driving needs. Its not like a porsche cayman S that is instantly track ready. Still and all, the Z is one of the coolest cars under 40k.
The brake issue... well it was an issue. We would like to believe it was a sh1tty driver or the guy didn't know what he was doing but, keeping it real. It makes sense that a $3,000 sport package that 2k of it are rims will have a BBK that would need personal upgrades to make it a true race brake system. New brake lines, rotors pads and fluid would probably increase performance significantly.
But I do have to agree that nissan amps themselves up. Then a few months later, you find out its really not as much as what it is, then you find yourself modding for improvements. Honestly this is a trait in all jap and asian cars and no one should be surprised. Still and all, looking past the hype. The asian auto market still gives more for your dollar than any other market. Weighing pro's and cons. I still think the Z is worthy.

I never heard any of that - but then again, the Nismo wasn't out yet.

There was a Nismo Frontier - are you suggesting (in a sense) that the Nismo Frontier is track-ready?

Just sayin...

Also, in your $3K upgrade, you're forgetting VLSD and Synchro-Rev Match.

kannibul · 05-03-2010, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Source: Nissanusa.com

Purpose-built and passionately engineered, the NISMO 370Z™ features race-bred, factory-tuned, extreme Nissan performance parts and accessories.

____________________

Also, Nissan never repudiated many mags, blogs, etc that were referring to the car as "track-ready". On a Google search of "Nismo 370Z track ready", I came up with tons of links.

Race-bred...means it was an Altima got humped by a race car. It's still a mutt...

Think of another main point - the Z shares it's platform (ie, the drivetrain, suspension, dimensions, etc) with the G37 - not exactly what I would think of as a race car.

Again, I - no matter who says what...would never take the Z in stock trim (nismo or not) to a track and instantly start doing "Lightning Laps", time trials or whatever, without doing a number of test runs and practice to get a feel for the car so I don't end up in a wall.

C&D made a point in their follow-up article to state right up front that it wasn't a talent issue - really? How much experience did that driver have with the Z? Why didn't the driver pickup on the fade that was clearly documented by C&D with later testing?

Again, the Nismo, or the Z in general - is not a race car - it's a sports car. It's mean for people who enjoy more power and performance than the average car...you add a helping of luxery and comfort, and you have the G37...

tjlazer · 05-03-2010, 05:34 PM

Do aftermarket BBKs like Brembo, Stop Tech, etc have this brake problem on the 370Z?

370Zsteve · 05-03-2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

There was a Nismo Frontier - are you suggesting (in a sense) that the Nismo Frontier is track-ready?

It might be off-road-ready, which I believe would be it's intended use. Yet after this PR nightmare I have to question whether the Nismo Frontier could seriously contest in any off-road race, of any kind, without 'issues'.

370Zsteve · 05-03-2010, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Race-bred...means it was an Altima got humped by a race car. It's still a mutt...

Think of another main point - the Z shares it's platform (ie, the drivetrain, suspension, dimensions, etc) with the G37 - not exactly what I would think of as a race car.

Again, I - no matter who says what...would never take the Z in stock trim (nismo or not) to a track and instantly start doing "Lightning Laps", time trials or whatever, without doing a number of test runs and practice to get a feel for the car so I don't end up in a wall.

C&D made a point in their follow-up article to state right up front that it wasn't a talent issue - really? How much experience did that driver have with the Z? Why didn't the driver pickup on the fade that was clearly documented by C&D with later testing?

Again, the Nismo, or the Z in general - is not a race car - it's a sports car. It's mean for people who enjoy more power and performance than the average car...you add a helping of luxery and comfort, and you have the G37...

I can't disagree with anything you say, Kan. Yet even car & Driver were dazzled by Nissan's marketing hype and threw it onto a race track in stock form. And as far as I can see, no other cars in the test had a FAIL like the Z.

kannibul · 05-03-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

I can't disagree with anything you say, Kan. Yet even car & Driver were dazzled by Nissan's marketing hype and threw it onto a race track in stock form. And as far as I can see, no other cars in the test had a FAIL like the Z.

Which takes me back to the driver being the issue, which is backed up with the point that they noted brake fade issues in their later testing.

Either that, or something else happened which tossed the car off to the wall, other than just the brakes failing - entered too fast, catastrophic loss of traction, etc...

There's no reason that brakes would go from great to piss poor in the space of 1 turn.

Maybe the pads were already worn down and they just melted off the remaining brake material...

gumpy · 05-03-2010, 06:56 PM

I have some questions, a bit noob so please forgive me.

1. The area between the fangs and the normal part of the bumper for the normal z is blocked up... could this not be modified to allow the air through on to the brakes? When I first saw the pics on the internet I thought that was what they were for...

2. If the sports brakes die so quickly, how much quicker would the non sports brakes die? Is the sports brakes on the z just for show to give the car larger rotors or is their a tangible benefit of having these large rotors?

3. Normal cars, the everyday camry or sonata or altima... how quickly will these brakes die if put through the same abuse? Are we talking 2 100-0mph stops and they're done?

I'll be reasonably sad if our sports brakes are just for show and don't really had a tangible safety/performance benefit. They do have great brake feel though...

klubbheads · 05-03-2010, 07:19 PM

All this panic.... wow.

I would love to hear someone that actually tracked the car hard nismo or not with sports package. If you have i'm assuming you did have hi temp fluid, steel braded lines, and race pads because that is what you would do to any car that goes to the track let it be a vette or a toyota camry.

If anyone falls into this category then you are welcome to give your input here. The rest of the thread is full of panic and assumption based on an article that was published to justify the stupidity of the test driver that failed to realise that brakes are fading i better slow the fvck down.....

ChrisSlicks · 05-03-2010, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klubbheads

All this panic.... wow.

I would love to hear someone that actually tracked the car hard nismo or not with sports package. If you have i'm assuming you did have hi temp fluid, steel braded lines, and race pads because that is what you would do to any car that goes to the track let it be a vette or a toyota camry.

If anyone falls into this category then you are welcome to give your input here. The rest of the thread is full of panic and assumption based on an article that was published to justify the stupidity of the test driver that failed to realise that brakes are fading i better slow the fvck down.....

If you upgrade all of the above the brakes may survive a track session when driven conservatively, however it wont survive a track session when flat out for 30 minutes. I've upgraded to the AP Racing kit and even those ultimately suffer the same fate, badly needs cooling vents.

Many of the harder drivers here have experienced the problem, and no there is none of the typical fade warnings before you get there.

rj45 · 05-03-2010, 08:39 PM

How difficult is adding brake cooling duct-work?

ChrisSlicks · 05-03-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

How difficult is adding brake cooling duct-work?

To do it right someone needs to develop a backing plate to replace or modify the stock rotor backing plate so that air can be forced around the back of the hub and and through the rotor veins. The stock fang area can be used as an intake.

Pushing air into the wheel well area would also help.

Zxces50 · 05-03-2010, 09:06 PM

First - I track mine for the fun of it and thrill- (NASA HPDE) and do NOT consider what I do as racing and do not plan on brining it to that level. So in my case when I did Limerock CN (4- 20 min sesions) with Stock Sport Brakes they were OK - nothing scary or no panic- my best lap was about 1:10 typical 1:15, top speed front straight ~ 130-35. Brakes worked consistent and never felt any significant fade- I was comfortable with the brakes but I did get some juddering under heavy brake on the front straight. I have pulled all pads and the wear was probably ~ 20-25% so still had a good 75% left. So all in all for "sport" track use it was acceptable and did feel safe and predictable- but yes all got very hot.
As I plan on a few more events- I figured what the heck might as well do some modest upgrades- SS Lines, Hawk HP+, Super Blue Fluid- so will compare to stock when I do Monticello in June- as I am not hard core racing this set up should be just fine.

05-03-2010, 05:34 PM	#66 (permalink)
tjlazer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Tacoma Age: 53 Posts: 2,496 Drives: Z34, R35 Rep Power: 20	Do aftermarket BBKs like Brembo, Stop Tech, etc have this brake problem on the 370Z? __________________ 2009 370Z Monterey Blue,Nismo Conversion,RE-11's, K&N Typhoon intakes,Blue Kickplates,Homelink,FI 18" CBE,ERZ HFCs,Hotchkis sways, Swift Spec-R, EVO-R Highwing, UPREV

05-03-2010, 07:19 PM	#71 (permalink)
klubbheads Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 221 Drives: Very slow Nismo 370 Rep Power: 16	All this panic.... wow. I would love to hear someone that actually tracked the car hard nismo or not with sports package. If you have i'm assuming you did have hi temp fluid, steel braded lines, and race pads because that is what you would do to any car that goes to the track let it be a vette or a toyota camry. If anyone falls into this category then you are welcome to give your input here. The rest of the thread is full of panic and assumption based on an article that was published to justify the stupidity of the test driver that failed to realise that brakes are fading i better slow the fvck down..... __________________ g35driver OG.

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05-03-2010, 06:56 PM	#70 (permalink)
gumpy Enthusiast Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Sydney Posts: 449 Drives: 09 370z white manual Rep Power: 16	I have some questions, a bit noob so please forgive me. 1. The area between the fangs and the normal part of the bumper for the normal z is blocked up... could this not be modified to allow the air through on to the brakes? When I first saw the pics on the internet I thought that was what they were for... 2. If the sports brakes die so quickly, how much quicker would the non sports brakes die? Is the sports brakes on the z just for show to give the car larger rotors or is their a tangible benefit of having these large rotors? 3. Normal cars, the everyday camry or sonata or altima... how quickly will these brakes die if put through the same abuse? Are we talking 2 100-0mph stops and they're done? I'll be reasonably sad if our sports brakes are just for show and don't really had a tangible safety/performance benefit. They do have great brake feel though...

05-03-2010, 08:39 PM	#73 (permalink)
rj45 Base Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: USA Posts: 60 Drives: 40th Anniversary Z Rep Power: 15	How difficult is adding brake cooling duct-work?

05-03-2010, 09:06 PM	#75 (permalink)
Zxces50 Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 208 Drives: 15 C7 Stingray Z51 Rep Power: 16	First - I track mine for the fun of it and thrill- (NASA HPDE) and do NOT consider what I do as racing and do not plan on brining it to that level. So in my case when I did Limerock CN (4- 20 min sesions) with Stock Sport Brakes they were OK - nothing scary or no panic- my best lap was about 1:10 typical 1:15, top speed front straight ~ 130-35. Brakes worked consistent and never felt any significant fade- I was comfortable with the brakes but I did get some juddering under heavy brake on the front straight. I have pulled all pads and the wear was probably ~ 20-25% so still had a good 75% left. So all in all for "sport" track use it was acceptable and did feel safe and predictable- but yes all got very hot. As I plan on a few more events- I figured what the heck might as well do some modest upgrades- SS Lines, Hawk HP+, Super Blue Fluid- so will compare to stock when I do Monticello in June- as I am not hard core racing this set up should be just fine.