What!!!! No ashtray

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Also, post your proof they have lower overall healthcare....

Unless you're considering the ones who die quickly after being diagnosed, if they're diagnosed...

*cough cough...must be gettin' a cold...draaaag*

:epicfacepalm:

How about an article from the New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM -- The Health Care Costs of Smoking

"Conclusions If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."

I'm just doing my part to save your tax dollars...

dalparadise · 03-25-2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

How about an article from the New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM -- The Health Care Costs of Smoking

"Conclusions If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."

I'm just doing my part to save your tax dollars...

In a convertible, the world is your ashtray.

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalparadise

In a convertible, the world is your ashtray.

lol....

Seriously ... please don't litter, wash your hands after going to the bathroom, and call your mother every once in a while

dalparadise · 03-25-2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

lol....

Seriously ... please don't litter, wash your hands after going to the bathroom, and call your mother every once in a while

Yeah, I don't smoke or litter. I always wash my hands and have remembered to call my mom 5 of her last 8 birthdays.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow2k

Sure, higher insurance premiums already. But did you pay 40% in taxes on your car? 42% is only the amount of the last tax hike in May on cigs, that's not even the total taxes already on them.

Cars...or sports cars? Either way, I take it you're picking the Versa? Or maybe walking? A Vespa even?

I only expect people to be consistent with their ideas. If you want to tax the hell out of my cigs because of all those things, then those same thoughts need to be applied to everything across the board.

I don't even smoke that much anymore. It's just the attitude of the non-smokers that pisses me off. Just because some clownpuncher smokes in the car with his kids, or lights up next to you in a restaurant doesn't mean we all do. I remember going to a bar years ago when this couple brought their kids in and sat right down next to me and my buddy. We went into the back to smoke because of the kids. 10 minutes later, the mom was cutting up the steak for her little boy...knife in one hand, fork and cig in the other, probably dropping ash all over it.

Not every smoker is inconsiderate. We shouldn't all be punished because of it, no more so than you should be punished for other people wrecking their Z's.

Ok, lets play that...figure a car lasts 200K, average driving of 15K/yr (13.33yrs) 22MPG (9090.90 gallons of fuel), and fuel is an average of $3.00/gallon. Over the life of the car that's $27,272.7 in fuel costs. According to Wikipedia, the fuel has 45.6% tax rate, which is $12436.35 in tax paid over the life of the vehicle, not including TT&L (in my case $1400), and tag renewals (another $1140 over 12yrs)

So, that brings the total to just under 15K. I paid $37.4K for my Z. That's 40.1%

Now, take my truck, with the same numbers...

I paid $24000 (roughly), TTL was $900. Tag renewals will be the same. It gets 18MPG on a good day with a bit of a tail wind.

$15200 tax paid on fuel, $2040 on TT&L + renewals = $17240 paid tax = 71.8% tax rate for my truck.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

How about an article from the New England Journal of Medicine

NEJM -- The Health Care Costs of Smoking

"Conclusions If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs."

I'm just doing my part to save your tax dollars...

perhaps because people would be living longer...

Lets kill all the felons to save money on prison costs...same logic, right? Less prisoners in prison, therefore it'll cost less!

Also, in the discussion part of the article, they are disclaiming a "related diseases" and the care involved in correcting those issues. They're just looking at people who smoke, vs people who don't smoke, where as smoke is the direct cause of the doctors visit.

That's like saying people who have HIV aren't sick, because AIDS is a side effect and shouldn't be counted, therefore HIV isn't bad.

Nick911sc · 03-25-2010, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

perhaps because people would be living longer...

Lets kill all the felons to save money on prison costs.

Some people might advocate that. Considering it costs about $60k a year per inmate. lol

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick911sc

Some people might advocate that. Considering it costs about $60k a year per inmate. lol

Strange how that works - people can live on 25K/yr in the "free" world, yet it costs $60K to house an inmate...

Just ship them to Etheopia, where $1/day can feed a family of 32 and ensure this (poster) child can have clean water and go to school.

I saw it on a commercial - lol.

Nick911sc · 03-25-2010, 10:47 PM

Genius!

But isn't that how Australia started?

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

perhaps because people would be living longer...

Lets kill all the felons to save money on prison costs...same logic, right? Less prisoners in prison, therefore it'll cost less!

Also, in the discussion part of the article, they are disclaiming a "related diseases" and the care involved in correcting those issues. They're just looking at people who smoke, vs people who don't smoke, where as smoke is the direct cause of the doctors visit.

That's like saying people who have HIV aren't sick, because AIDS is a side effect and shouldn't be counted, therefore HIV isn't bad.

I am not advocating any of that. I was simply responding to your unsubstantiated claim that smoking causes increased medical costs. I stated it doesn't and provided some evidence for my claim.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick911sc

Genius!

But isn't that how Australia started?

It is, and see how well it worked out for them?

We could turn Etheopia into the next Sidney.

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

I am not advocating any of that. I was simply responding to your unsubstantiated claim that smoking causes increased medical costs. I stated it doesn't and provided some evidence for my claim.

No offense, but the evidence you provided has a lot of holes in it.

Four words in a very related argument where both sides prop up articles that have more holes than the Ozone Layer:

Man Made Global Warming

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

No offense, but the evidence you provided has a lot of holes in it.

Four words in a very related argument where both sides prop up articles that have more holes than the Ozone Layer:

Man Made Global Warming

At least I provided some evidence. You simply claimed something as true and haven't produced any evidence to back up your position. If you don't like that article here's another

How Much Does Smoking Cost Society?

From the article:

"Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi studied the net costs of smoking-related spending and savings and found that for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.

It looks unpleasant or ghoulish to look at the cost savings as well as the cost increases and it's not a good thing that smoking kills people," Viscusi said in an interview. "But if you're going to follow this health-cost train all the way, you have to take into account all the effects, not just the ones you like in terms of getting your bill passed."

kannibul · 03-25-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaggeron

At least I provided some evidence. You simply claimed something as true and haven't produced any evidence to back up your position. If you don't like that article here's another

How Much Does Smoking Cost Society?

From the article:

"Vanderbilt University economist Kip Viscusi studied the net costs of smoking-related spending and savings and found that for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.

It looks unpleasant or ghoulish to look at the cost savings as well as the cost increases and it's not a good thing that smoking kills people," Viscusi said in an interview. "But if you're going to follow this health-cost train all the way, you have to take into account all the effects, not just the ones you like in terms of getting your bill passed."

Here's 11.2M:
Google

Also, the article is suggesting we put people down like animals. OK...I guess. I mean, I'm sure that would save us buillions of healthcare dollars, however, imagine all the psychiatric care costs for those who grieve...

Zaggeron · 03-25-2010, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

Here's 11.2M:
Google

Great, I cite two papers. One from the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine and another with a quote from a famous economist ....

here is the actual link to his paper

Cigarette Taxation and the Social Consequences of Smoking

and you give me a Google link. How many of those 11.2 million articles are from refereed scientific journals? How many have you actually read?

Besides, you missed the point completely. Your search was on "smoking is bad". I never claimed it wasn't. Anyway ... "smoking is good" nets

Results 1 - 10 of about 64,600,000 for smoking is good. (0.27 seconds)

That's 64.6 million to your 11.2 milliom. I win

03-25-2010, 10:47 PM	#114 (permalink)
Nick911sc A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 1,698 Drives: 2010 Nissan GT-R Rep Power: 20	Genius! But isn't that how Australia started?