Intelligent key port aka fobgina question

semtex · 03-11-2010, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

When you took the battery out did you discharge any residual current remaining inside? I.e. press the buttons until they didn't work anymore? That would help determine if it uses passive or active RFID.

No, I did not do that.

ChrisSlicks · 03-11-2010, 06:05 PM

I would think the RFID system pulls so little power that residual power could operate it for quite some time without a battery. Just a guess.

semtex · 03-11-2010, 06:06 PM

Could be. Dangit, I'm going to have to experiment again, aren't I?

ChrisSlicks · 03-11-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Could be. Dangit, I'm going to have to experiment again, aren't I?

Yes.

I would do it myself but I have to look into a possible brake line leak, dammit.

nextbesthing · 03-11-2010, 06:28 PM

That hole is just a key holder, it does not charge the key. I don't get this thread.

ChrisSlicks · 03-11-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nextbesthing

That hole is just a key holder, it does not charge the key. I don't get this thread.

No one said it charged the key (BMW's do that). The question is whether the Fobgina is "required" when the FOB is completely discharged.

Cjanik · 03-11-2010, 07:29 PM

I like to think of it this way , hopefully it will make sense to others too:

think of the RFID chip that they put in pets in case they run away. There's no batteries or whatnot in it, you just hold a scanner right above it and it will read it. The FOB is the same way. It does have power to allow it to transmit at a distance, but remove that power, and its the same thing as a pets RFID tag, meaning it can still transmit, just has to be very close to the reader.

steveg78 · 03-11-2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjanik

I like to think of it this way , hopefully it will make sense to others too:

think of the RFID chip that they put in pets in case they run away. There's no batteries or whatnot in it, you just hold a scanner right above it and it will read it. The FOB is the same way. It does have power to allow it to transmit at a distance, but remove that power, and its the same thing as a pets RFID tag, meaning it can still transmit, just has to be very close to the reader.

I agree and I think this sounds like the only logical explanation. I'm gonna remove the battery on my spare FOB and make sure I press the buttons until it doesn't unlock doors etc... Then try and open the doors with it in my pocket using the button on the handle....Then I'll try and start the car with it in my pocket. Then I'll stick the FOB in the GINA and try to start. Maybe even stick it NEAR the fobgina and see if that works. I'll report back to settle my own question

steveg78 · 03-11-2010, 08:37 PM

Here's the verdict:

Pulled battery.
Pressed buttons on dead fob to make sure it was dead.
With dead fob in hand pressed button on door: nothing
Used key to get in
Ugly computer displays "No Key"
With dead fob in hand tried ignition: nothing
Stuck my finger in fobgina

while pressing ignition and holding the fob NEAR the fobgina :nothing

Interestingly, when I stuck my finger in the fobgina the computer displayed the "Clutch" screen but that was as far as it went.

I would bet that there is some sort of RFID in the fob.

Zaggeron · 03-11-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveg78

I agree and I think this sounds like the only logical explanation. I'm gonna remove the battery on my spare FOB and make sure I press the buttons until it doesn't unlock doors etc... Then try and open the doors with it in my pocket using the button on the handle....Then I'll try and start the car with it in my pocket. Then I'll stick the FOB in the GINA and try to start. Maybe even stick it NEAR the fobgina and see if that works. I'll report back to settle my own question

Waiting with bells on ...

lol I should refresh before posting

ChrisSlicks · 03-11-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveg78

Here's the verdict:

Pulled battery.
Pressed buttons on dead fob to make sure it was dead.
With dead fob in hand pressed button on door: nothing
Used key to get in
Ugly computer displays "No Key"
With dead fob in hand tried ignition: nothing
Stuck my finger in fobgina

while pressing ignition and holding the fob NEAR the fobgina :nothing

Interestingly, when I stuck my finger in the fobgina the computer displayed the "Clutch" screen but that was as far as it went.

I would bet that there is some sort of RFID in the fob.

+rep

Yes, it is an "active" RFID which requires power from somewhere.

Did it start when docked in the fobgina?

Cjanik · 03-11-2010, 11:24 PM

+1 rep, about time someone answered the 4 page long question!

steveg78 · 03-12-2010, 12:24 AM

Hahahaha thanks I know, I answered my own question. I figured someone would already know the answer.

And YES it started when docked in the fobgina with NO BATTERY in the fob.

FricFrac · 03-12-2010, 02:09 AM

Ok I just took 30 second for some experimentation to figure this out. This is how it works.

The Fob is required to transmit the electronic key wirelessly to the ECU. The car will not start unless it has a signal from the fob with the right electronic key or "password" if you will.

The Fob performs the remote functions such as locking/unlocking the doors, rolling the windows down or setting off the alarm. It needs the battery to perform that function.

With the battery in the Fob can transmit the electronic key (or "password") over several feet (have the fob in your pocket/purse/backpack, etc).

If the battery dies the fob is unable to transmit the electronic key because it is not a passive RFID - it requires power to transmit the electronic key. To prevent you from getting stuck Nissan has engineered the fob so that it has a loop of wire on the PCB (printed circuit board) opposite to the end that the keys attach (under the Nissan or Z logo). Open the fob and you'll see it. By placing the fob inside the fobgina the coil in the fobgina will induce a current in the coil in the fob giving it power to transmit the electronic key. Its simply a power port for the fob.

So for those of you wondering why the fob is needed its simply because the electronic key or "password" needs to be transmitted from the fob to the ECU. Without the correct "password" your car will not start. The fobgina is just a power outlet to power the fob up. You can use the fobgina with a good battery (which is pointless) a dead battery or no battery - the fobgina becomes the power source. There is no switch inside the fobgina to start the car (there is a switch to turn the power on to the fobgina's inductive coil though).

Also the coin cell in the fob is probably the most common coin cell in the world - a 2032. You should be able to get them anywhere, they are cheap and change it yourself in two seconds flat.

Csquared · 03-12-2010, 04:34 AM

Do you guys have memory seats? I know in my G depending on which Key you place in the hole the seat settings would change to that key. For example, when I placed my key in the hole the seats would move to my setting and the 2 settings on the door would be the ones I set. If I place my spare key in the hole then the memory settings are the ones set for that key. I hope I was clear.

03-11-2010, 06:06 PM	#48 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 54 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 32	Could be. Dangit, I'm going to have to experiment again, aren't I? __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

03-12-2010, 02:09 AM	#59 (permalink)
FricFrac A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 1,481 Drives: 370Z 300ZX 280ZX 240 Rep Power: 229	Ok I just took 30 second for some experimentation to figure this out. This is how it works. The Fob is required to transmit the electronic key wirelessly to the ECU. The car will not start unless it has a signal from the fob with the right electronic key or "password" if you will. The Fob performs the remote functions such as locking/unlocking the doors, rolling the windows down or setting off the alarm. It needs the battery to perform that function. With the battery in the Fob can transmit the electronic key (or "password") over several feet (have the fob in your pocket/purse/backpack, etc). If the battery dies the fob is unable to transmit the electronic key because it is not a passive RFID - it requires power to transmit the electronic key. To prevent you from getting stuck Nissan has engineered the fob so that it has a loop of wire on the PCB (printed circuit board) opposite to the end that the keys attach (under the Nissan or Z logo). Open the fob and you'll see it. By placing the fob inside the fobgina the coil in the fobgina will induce a current in the coil in the fob giving it power to transmit the electronic key. Its simply a power port for the fob. So for those of you wondering why the fob is needed its simply because the electronic key or "password" needs to be transmitted from the fob to the ECU. Without the correct "password" your car will not start. The fobgina is just a power outlet to power the fob up. You can use the fobgina with a good battery (which is pointless) a dead battery or no battery - the fobgina becomes the power source. There is no switch inside the fobgina to start the car (there is a switch to turn the power on to the fobgina's inductive coil though). Also the coin cell in the fob is probably the most common coin cell in the world - a 2032. You should be able to get them anywhere, they are cheap and change it yourself in two seconds flat. 2string1 likes this. __________________ '09 370Z - '93 300ZX Vert - '83 280ZX - '83 280ZXT -'81 280ZXT stroker - '72 240Z - Stillen CBE, HFC, G3, Grounding Kit, Sways // Swift Spring // H&R 15mm // 5% Tint // Clear Bra // Last edited by FricFrac; 03-12-2010 at 02:51 AM.

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03-11-2010, 06:05 PM	#47 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	I would think the RFID system pulls so little power that residual power could operate it for quite some time without a battery. Just a guess.

03-11-2010, 06:28 PM	#50 (permalink)
nextbesthing Base Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: central jersey Posts: 187 Drives: 2009 PW 370Z Rep Power: 16	That hole is just a key holder, it does not charge the key. I don't get this thread.

03-11-2010, 07:29 PM	#52 (permalink)
Cjanik Track Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 578 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 17	I like to think of it this way , hopefully it will make sense to others too: think of the RFID chip that they put in pets in case they run away. There's no batteries or whatnot in it, you just hold a scanner right above it and it will read it. The FOB is the same way. It does have power to allow it to transmit at a distance, but remove that power, and its the same thing as a pets RFID tag, meaning it can still transmit, just has to be very close to the reader.

03-11-2010, 08:37 PM	#54 (permalink)
steveg78 Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: MD Posts: 569 Drives: 09 370Z PG M6 +Sport Rep Power: 17	Here's the verdict: Pulled battery. Pressed buttons on dead fob to make sure it was dead. With dead fob in hand pressed button on door: nothing Used key to get in Ugly computer displays "No Key" With dead fob in hand tried ignition: nothing Stuck my finger in fobgina while pressing ignition and holding the fob NEAR the fobgina :nothing Interestingly, when I stuck my finger in the fobgina the computer displayed the "Clutch" screen but that was as far as it went. I would bet that there is some sort of RFID in the fob.

03-11-2010, 11:24 PM	#57 (permalink)
Cjanik Track Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 578 Drives: N/A Rep Power: 17	+1 rep, about time someone answered the 4 page long question!

03-12-2010, 12:24 AM	#58 (permalink)
steveg78 Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: MD Posts: 569 Drives: 09 370Z PG M6 +Sport Rep Power: 17	Hahahaha thanks I know, I answered my own question. I figured someone would already know the answer. And YES it started when docked in the fobgina with NO BATTERY in the fob.

03-12-2010, 04:34 AM	#60 (permalink)
Csquared Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 302 Drives: 09 Nissan 370z Y 7sp Rep Power: 15	Do you guys have memory seats? I know in my G depending on which Key you place in the hole the seat settings would change to that key. For example, when I placed my key in the hole the seats would move to my setting and the 2 settings on the door would be the ones I set. If I place my spare key in the hole then the memory settings are the ones set for that key. I hope I was clear.