370 debate on Camaro board

[LiquidZ]

Originally Posted by Crash

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Just because you make the power/tq at the flywheel doesn't mean that you're getting all that to the ground.

The Camaro's final gear is a 3.45 (that's bigger than the non-SS trims which are 3.27). That being said, the Z has 3.64 (I believe) and that's going to increase the amount of torque to the ground for the Z over the Camaro.

Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are on the 6-speed used in the Camaro SS are 3.01, 2.07, and 1.43 (respectively). The ratios will have a lot to do with first gear launching... Keep in mind that the Camaro - weighing in at 3900LBs - will need a very big first gear (like 4.0) to get off the line that fast.

Also, in the twisties, torque is actually a bad thing. They can talk about how the Camaro uses the G8 chassis, but we're still talking about a near 2 ton car with small tires that are likely garbage (since all GM OEM tires lately are garbage) and suspension that will be design for the 1/4 mile. I used to be a GM fanboy and I used to own F-bodies. But I know numbers well too. Fact is that (besides the build quality and crappy interior on the Camaro), the Z will be superior even if the Camaro DOES beat it in the 1/4. If the numbers are that close for the 1/4, than the Camaro doesn't stand a chance against the Z at the GT tracks.

In addition, it will DEFINITELY be a driver's race. I've raced for MANY years and can tell you that it usually comes down to the driver when the numbers are this close.

But for arguments sake, lets run the numbers: (EDITED: GOT THE Z's NUMBERS)

Camaro: 424tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4403.028 (First gear)

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.13lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.

Camaro has an IRS.

That aside, I do agree about the gearing. People never think about the gearing.

[Crash]

^^^ I also updated the numbers in my last post...

The Camaro finally got IRS!?!? That's lame. The live axle was WAY better for racing.

[Asheth]

Originally Posted by frost

That argument fools you into thinking it's good because it applies logical math, however, this argument assumes that handling is simply based on a power to weight ratio. Admittedly, that's an important aspect but it's not the only aspect. Suspension, balance, steering, reinforcements, length, width, aerodynamics, tire/rime size and etcetera all come into play.

Also, not to split hairs over 4 hp, but it was offically announced Friday that the camaro has 426hp with torque not being mentioned.

One last point as I beat this debate to death, as a former camaro/firebird owner, I can tell you that owning one of those does not put you in a the class of the Z cars. What I mean by that is, my camaro looked exactly the same as the one the trailer park people were driving, the moms trying to keep their youth, and the kids who cheese out those cars. Because of the Zs price-point, you're in a different class with a particular breed of people, and you generally don't have to worry about seeing the cholo with spinners on his Z sitting next to you at a light making your car look less classy.

I think the Z takes the practicality out of consideration. I would say that most but def not all buy American Muscle because it does come with the back seat. If you buy the Z its because thats what you want and you either have another car for passengers or you don't care about passengers lol.

I plan to get one cause I fall in both categories I don't care about passengers and I want one. I hate when my friends try to hop in my Spyder and I have a 2+2 I thought about the G37 but all that would be is one extra passenger cause nobody would get behind me. Though I do not mind the extra trunk space.

[Crash]

Same for me... I have no desire to transport people around. As far as I'm concerned, there is only me when I'm driving. Passengers will never be a consideration in my cars until I have a kid, which isn't for at least 4 years. And even then, I'll still have my "fun" car.

I won't buy another GM product. They're complete garbage when it comes to build quality and they make them poor quality on purpose so they can make more money on warranty work. To me, that's a backwards business model, and it only deter me from buying their cars.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by SBG

We are comparing apple to oranges. Having more HP and Torque does nothing to make a car handle better.


My arguement was in the handling department (not straight line speed). I think most will agree the Camaro will have an advantage at the drag strip. But on a road course or racing in the twisties, the 370z will have the advantage.

The Camaro's 3900 lbs will really hurt its handling abilities. The Camaro SS runs similarly sized tires as the 370z, but it weighs 500+ lbs more. So which car do you think will handle better and get around a track faster?

I guess we will find out when it actually comes out and get's tested. I wished the z had more TQ though.:lezbun:/

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by Crash

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Just because you make the power/tq at the flywheel doesn't mean that you're getting all that to the ground.

The Camaro's final gear is a 3.45 (that's bigger than the non-SS trims which are 3.27). That being said, the Z has 3.64 (I believe) and that's going to increase the amount of torque to the ground for the Z over the Camaro.

Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are on the 6-speed used in the Camaro SS are 3.01, 2.07, and 1.43 (respectively). The ratios will have a lot to do with first gear launching... Keep in mind that the Camaro - weighing in at 3900LBs - will need a very big first gear (like 4.0) to get off the line that fast.

Also, in the twisties, torque is actually a bad thing. They can talk about how the Camaro uses the G8 chassis, but we're still talking about a near 2 ton car with small tires that are likely garbage (since all GM OEM tires lately are garbage) and suspension that will be design for the 1/4 mile. I used to be a GM fanboy and I used to own F-bodies. But I know numbers well too. Fact is that (besides the build quality and crappy interior on the Camaro), the Z will be superior even if the Camaro DOES beat it in the 1/4. If the numbers are that close for the 1/4, than the Camaro doesn't stand a chance against the Z at the GT tracks.

In addition, it will DEFINITELY be a driver's race. I've raced for MANY years and can tell you that it usually comes down to the driver when the numbers are this close.

But for arguments sake, lets run the numbers: (EDITED: GOT THE Z's NUMBERS)

Camaro SS: 408tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4236.876 (First gear) <--- Notice the Tq number is corrected here, it is not 424, it's 408.

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.09lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.

WoW confusing LOL. You should make that arguement on the 2009 Camaro 2010 Camaro New Camaro forums, news, reviews, wallpapers, pricing - Camaro5.comwebsite. But were talking about street racing. Most non pro race's takes place on the regular streets which is the 1/4 mile. It would of been nice if the z had more TQ. Other than that the car looks amazing:lezbun:

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by Crash

^^^ I also updated the numbers in my last post...

The Camaro finally got IRS!?!? That's lame. The live axle was WAY better for racing.

What do you mean by IRS and live axle? Which one does the z has?:lezbun:

[CrownR426]

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

I guess we will find out when it actually comes out and get's tested. I wished the z had more TQ though.:lezbun:/

You can get more tq. easily.
Just gonna cost you!

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by CrownR426

You can get more tq. easily.
Just gonna cost you!

Yea thats true. I here its harder to get more TQ out of car than HP.
But it would of been nice if it had like 320 TQ

[Crash]

Technically, although the Z doesn't produce as much Tq at the crank as the Camaro, it does produce MORE torque at the wheels per each pound the car weighs... That's where it WILL make a difference in the 1/4 mile. I'd put my money on the Z beating the Camaro!

I'm a really good 1/4 mile driver (since I used to street race a bit - wink wink) and I'll tell you that I'll likely make that car beat the Camaro. With an intake and tune, it will seal the deal.

Live Axel vs. IRS

IRS = Independent Rear Suspension
IRS is good for handling (depending on the car) when it comes to GT racing. However, you lose power and it's harder to put more power to the ground through this system.

Live Axle is when the rear suspension is not Left-Right independent. Every motion on one side (up, down, forward, and backwards) effects the other. However, this system is MUCH better for drag racing (1/4 mile type) because it's easier to put the power to the ground evenly through both rear tires. When the car "squats" back during a launch, the power is applied evenly.

Most cars that have the transmission in the rear (Corvettes, Porsches, Lotus, etc) will generally have IRS. Apparently up until the 5th generation of F-Bodies (Camaros, Firebirds) the F-body had a Live Axle making them very good for drag racing.

[LiquidZ]

I would also like to add that an IRS will give you a more comfortable ride.

[Auto Zed]

im sure this has been said already but the camaro would probably have the z in a straight line drag but around the track or on the side of a mountain through the twists n turns (where it counts) the camaro would wobble and bobble like every other terrible american made car (sure a COUPLE are good but consider there are probably (pulling this number out of the air) some 60 american cars out there and only 2 are good .. i know those figures are probably well off but whatever the case. the europeans and japanese own perfomance, quality and reliability in the car market respectively.

[CrownR426]

Originally Posted by Auto Zed

im sure this has been said already but the camaro would probably have the z in a straight line drag but around the track or on the side of a mountain through the twists n turns (where it counts) the camaro would wobble and bobble like every other terrible american made car (sure a COUPLE are good but consider there are probably (pulling this number out of the air) some 60 american cars out there and only 2 are good .. i know those figures are probably well off but whatever the case. the europeans and japanese own perfomance, quality and reliability in the car market respectively.

You are right on the dot!
But... We won't know until the actually comparison occurs, which im sure motor trend or some other magazine will do!
All I know is that either the camaro or z will start bragging.
Let's all be friends, even though I know who would win!

[Crash]

Honestly, I really DO think the Z will win in the 1/4... Power to weight and Tq to weight ratios are all in the Z's favor. Like I said, this will DEFINITELY be a driver's race.

One thing's for sure, it's going to be close no matter the outcome.

[Crash]

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

You should make that arguement on the 2009 Camaro 2010 Camaro New Camaro forums, news, reviews, wallpapers, pricing - Camaro5.comwebsite. But were talking about street racing.

Not worth my time. I used to own an F-body and I hung out with LOTS of people that owned them. I admit, I was the same way, but these guys are fanboys. They don't want to listen to numbers or reason. If the Z put down the EXACT same power, they'd still argue that the Camaro would win. It's really no use dealing with them. They're pretty hard headed. I'm in Socal Muscle Club and they're all somewhat pissed at me that I'm going with another Z. LOL

Needless to say, I'm not going to waste my time yelling at a wall.