370 debate on Camaro board

[Slidefox]

^^Welcome!

[frost]

Originally Posted by SBG

Hi guys, my first post in this site.

I've been very active over in the Camaro forums. I've come very close to ordering a 2010 Camaro SS.

I was also pretty amazed by how many guys over in the Camaro forum think the Camaro SS will handle as well as the 370z.

I posted over a Camaro5.com to try to bring them down to Earth.

The 370z only weighs 3350 lbs and runs on 275 series rear tires (Touring).
The Camaro SS weighs 3900 lbs and runs on 275 series rear tires.
So which car do you think will handle the best? That along with the fact that the 370z is pulling .98 G's - .99 G's on the skid pad pretty much seals the deal.
There's no way the Camaro SS is going to pull those kind on numbers on the skid pad.

Drag strip- Camaro SS > 370Z
Road course- 370Z > Camaro SS

Welcome, and thanks for bringing realistic, analytical-thought with you! I was a fellow GTO owner myself, great car!

[Pushing_Tin]

Welcome SBG, I have been a member over there for a few months. I think it's great that the discussion had been very civil overall. Many times those type of threads degrade into a juvenille rant. I still am very interested in the Camaro and will definitely go check it out whenever it finally comes out.

[frost]

Originally Posted by Pushing_Tin

I still am very interested in the Camaro and will definitely go check it out whenever it finally comes out.

We will be driving 390Zs by then!

I jest. The camaro is a good looking car ... from what I heave seen of pictures and sitting in a (now) 3 year old concept car.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by bossman

all bias aside, the z will dimolish that car around the track

Maybe, maybe not. I wish the z had more tq.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by SBG

Hi guys, my first post in this site.

I've been very active over in the Camaro forums. I've come very close to ordering a 2010 Camaro SS.

I was also pretty amazed by how many guys over in the Camaro forum think the Camaro SS will handle as well as the 370z.

I posted over a Camaro5.com to try to bring them down to Earth.

The 370z only weighs 3350 lbs and runs on 275 series rear tires (Touring).
The Camaro SS weighs 3900 lbs and runs on 275 series rear tires.
So which car do you think will handle the best? That along with the fact that the 370z is pulling .98 G's - .99 G's on the skid pad pretty much seals the deal.
There's no way the Camaro SS is going to pull those kind on numbers on the skid pad.

Drag strip- Camaro SS > 370Z
Road course- 370Z > Camaro SS

This is from the camaro5.com website. This is one of guy said regarding the weight of the car:


The LS3 Camaro has 430hp 424tq, the z has 332hp and 270tq, the Camaro has 98hp and 154tq more than the z.

The Camaro weighs 3900 and the z weighs 3300. Torque is the name of the game, its the amount of twisting force that is applied to the rear axle. Hp is a measurement of energy being created, not actual twisting force.

Camaro - 3,900 pounds
.110 hp per pound of weight.
.108 ftlbs of tq per pound of weight.

370Z - 3,300 pounds
.106 hp per pound of weight.
.081 ftlbs of tq per pound of weight.

You can clearly see that the Camaro will easily kick the little z's ***, this is not a "drivers race".

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by SBG

Hi guys, my first post in this site.

I've been very active over in the Camaro forums. I've come very close to ordering a 2010 Camaro SS.

I was also pretty amazed by how many guys over in the Camaro forum think the Camaro SS will handle as well as the 370z.

I posted over a Camaro5.com to try to bring them down to Earth.

The 370z only weighs 3350 lbs and runs on 275 series rear tires (Touring).
The Camaro SS weighs 3900 lbs and runs on 275 series rear tires.
So which car do you think will handle the best? That along with the fact that the 370z is pulling .98 G's - .99 G's on the skid pad pretty much seals the deal.
There's no way the Camaro SS is going to pull those kind on numbers on the skid pad.

Drag strip- Camaro SS > 370Z
Road course- 370Z > Camaro SS

I also read in their forum that the camaro they used was the v6 engine and its not the regular production car. So, when the actual production car is released and use the SS model, maybe the actual skid pad maybe better or the same as the 370z.

[frost]

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

This is from the camaro5.com website. This is one of guy said regarding the weight of the car:


The LS3 Camaro has 430hp 424tq, the z has 332hp and 270tq, the Camaro has 98hp and 154tq more than the z.

The Camaro weighs 3900 and the z weighs 3300. Torque is the name of the game, its the amount of twisting force that is applied to the rear axle. Hp is a measurement of energy being created, not actual twisting force.

Camaro - 3,900 pounds
.110 hp per pound of weight.
.108 ftlbs of tq per pound of weight.

370Z - 3,300 pounds
.106 hp per pound of weight.
.081 ftlbs of tq per pound of weight.

You can clearly see that the Camaro will easily kick the little z's ***, this is not a "drivers race".

That argument fools you into thinking it's good because it applies logical math, however, this argument assumes that handling is simply based on a power to weight ratio. Admittedly, that's an important aspect but it's not the only aspect. Suspension, balance, steering, reinforcements, length, width, aerodynamics, tire/rime size and etcetera all come into play.

Also, not to split hairs over 4 hp, but it was offically announced Friday that the camaro has 426hp with torque not being mentioned.

One last point as I beat this debate to death, as a former camaro/firebird owner, I can tell you that owning one of those does not put you in a the class of the Z cars. What I mean by that is, my camaro looked exactly the same as the one the trailer park people were driving, the moms trying to keep their youth, and the kids who cheese out those cars. Because of the Zs price-point, you're in a different class with a particular breed of people, and you generally don't have to worry about seeing the cholo with spinners on his Z sitting next to you at a light making your car look less classy.

[FricFrac]

It amazes me how blind many seem to be to the whole weight issue. 400+ lbs is a huge big deal on a car. It really affects how the car handles not just its power to weight ratio. Even the Z has been chastized about its weight - the GTR as well. Nissan did a fantastic job shaving weight off - unfortunately there was a lot of regulations (saftey first of course) that added most of that weight back on. I'd rather have the 100 lbs lighter car than another 10HP...

Its just a big bench racing thread anyhow - how can you compare results on a pre-production car. You can vastly affect numbers by just changing the tires. There will be no comparisons until the car is actually released....

Its nice to see the racing technology coming down to these cars. I mean the ZR1 is an amazing car as is the GTR - super cars within reach. Now the Z is hanging with the Cayman S and even the $250K DB9 is very close in performance. If the Camaro is in the same class that's pretty cool that auto technology has come so far.

....regardless there is some interesting commentary and generally speaking most ppl are respectful. Nice to see

[diddiyo]

i'm an active member on camaro5.com

tbh, i'm really sick of those "car X vs. car Y" threads... just buy whatever you like. I won't be racing the car anyway so I don't care.

i'm personally looking into either the V6 camaro or the Z. I prefer the Camaro atm because I have to drive whichever car I choose in the winter as well and it's a bit less $$$.

[Shortbus]

Originally Posted by frost

That argument fools you into thinking it's good because it applies logical math, however, this argument assumes that handling is simply based on a power to weight ratio. Admittedly, that's an important aspect but it's not the only aspect. Suspension, balance, steering, reinforcements, length, width, aerodynamics, tire/rime size and etcetera all come into play.

Also, not to split hairs over 4 hp, but it was offically announced Friday that the camaro has 426hp with torque not being mentioned.

One last point as I beat this debate to death, as a former camaro/firebird owner, I can tell you that owning one of those does not put you in a the class of the Z cars. What I mean by that is, my camaro looked exactly the same as the one the trailer park people were driving, the moms trying to keep their youth, and the kids who cheese out those cars. Because of the Zs price-point, you're in a different class with a particular breed of people, and you generally don't have to worry about seeing the cholo with spinners on his Z sitting next to you at a light making your car look less classy.

I want to enter another car in this mix!
Mercedes S550 4Matic.

Check out these stats, maybe I should take 'em to the Camaro forum since they seem so number happy.

382 horsepower and 391 lb-ft of torque, with 75% of peak torque available at just 1,000 rpm

0 to 60 mph in just 5.4 seconds.

Curb Weight - 4,630 lbs (what about 700 pounds more than the Chevy?)

Actually I agree with Frost about the class of people and you also have to take into consideration the build quality.

[18rgcelica73]

Ok what is this camaro>370z on the 1/4 mile? Trap speed yes the camaro is trapping 108 but still 13.3 same as the 370z with a driver not really beating on the car, trap speed so far on the z is 105.7 motor trend. This is done with WAY less torque what 154 ftlb less and 90 or so hp less. To me Nissan is deffinitely ahead of the American "beast" that is coming out.

[tvfreakazoid]

Originally Posted by Pushing_Tin

I see the car is delayed, they are saying a one month delay, but I suspect it will be longer in reality. They also said that the SS (V8) model will take a lot longer to get to dealers due to the demand. Some people may not get the cars they ordered until next year. Glad I got my Z!

Congrats on your new Z. How much did you get it for? Where you able to negotiate and bring down on the price?

[SBG]

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

This is from the camaro5.com website. This is one of guy said regarding the weight of the car:


The LS3 Camaro has 430hp 424tq, the z has 332hp and 270tq, the Camaro has 98hp and 154tq more than the z.

The Camaro weighs 3900 and the z weighs 3300. Torque is the name of the game, its the amount of twisting force that is applied to the rear axle. Hp is a measurement of energy being created, not actual twisting force.

Camaro - 3,900 pounds
.110 hp per pound of weight.
.108 ftlbs of tq per pound of weight.

370Z - 3,300 pounds
.106 hp per pound of weight.
.081 ftlbs of tq per pound of weight.

You can clearly see that the Camaro will easily kick the little z's ***, this is not a "drivers race".

We are comparing apple to oranges. Having more HP and Torque does nothing to make a car handle better.


My arguement was in the handling department (not straight line speed). I think most will agree the Camaro will have an advantage at the drag strip. But on a road course or racing in the twisties, the 370z will have the advantage.

The Camaro's 3900 lbs will really hurt its handling abilities. The Camaro SS runs similarly sized tires as the 370z, but it weighs 500+ lbs more. So which car do you think will handle better and get around a track faster?

[Crash]

You're forgetting a VERY important factor in this math: GEARING!

Just because you make the power/tq at the flywheel doesn't mean that you're getting all that to the ground.

The Camaro's final gear is a 3.45 (that's bigger than the non-SS trims which are 3.27). That being said, the Z has 3.64 (I believe) and that's going to increase the amount of torque to the ground for the Z over the Camaro.

Also, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are on the 6-speed used in the Camaro SS are 3.01, 2.07, and 1.43 (respectively). The ratios will have a lot to do with first gear launching... Keep in mind that the Camaro - weighing in at 3900LBs - will need a very big first gear (like 4.0) to get off the line that fast.

Also, in the twisties, torque is actually a bad thing. They can talk about how the Camaro uses the G8 chassis, but we're still talking about a near 2 ton car with small tires that are likely garbage (since all GM OEM tires lately are garbage) and suspension that will be design for the 1/4 mile. I used to be a GM fanboy and I used to own F-bodies. But I know numbers well too. Fact is that (besides the build quality and crappy interior on the Camaro), the Z will be superior even if the Camaro DOES beat it in the 1/4. If the numbers are that close for the 1/4, than the Camaro doesn't stand a chance against the Z at the GT tracks.

In addition, it will DEFINITELY be a driver's race. I've raced for MANY years and can tell you that it usually comes down to the driver when the numbers are this close.

But for arguments sake, lets run the numbers: (EDITED: GOT THE Z's NUMBERS)

Camaro SS: 408tq * 3.45 * 3.01 = 4236.876 (First gear) <--- Notice the Tq number is corrected here, it is not 424, it's 408.

370z: 270 * 3.794 * 3.692 = 3782.01096 (First gear)

NOW do the math on tq/lbs:

Camaro: 1.09lbstq/1Lbs weight

370z: 1.18lbstq/1Lbs weight

The Z CLEARLY has more torque per pound. But the numbers are still very close and the Camaro has the benefit of a live axle vs. IRS. That being said, it is DEFINITELY a drivers race and will certainly come down to the wire with both cars.

I got my information from:
Nissan 370Z Official Specs Released from Nissan 11.15.08
AND
http://krang.superchevy.com/features...ifications.pdf <--- Assuming that these are correct.