Looking on info on Va Laws (mufflers and exhaust)

ResIpsa · 04-16-2012, 08:32 AM

I have always wanted to try one of these cases. However, even if I charged almost nothing it would cost more to retain me than just pay the fine. The "or comparable to that designed for use on the particular vehicle as standard factory equipment” language should (in the real world) make these cases impossible for the prosecutor to prove.

The statute should require the prosecutor to bring in an expert witness. In this case, probably a Nissan technician to testify about the design and noise level of the factory exhaust. Then the technician would have to testify about the design and noise level of the factory exhaust. In my opinion, this would also require a decibel gauge.

Of course, the technician will have no expertise on the aftermarket exhaust. Therefore, the prosecutor would then need a separate expert witness for the aftermarket exhaust. That witness should be required to testify that the aftermarket exhaust is not “comparable to that designed for use” on a 370Z and that it is measurably louder.

Unfortunately, this is not what happens in the real world. The cop just uses your statement that it is an aftermarket exhaust and testifies that, in his opinion, it was louder.

If you want to fight this in court, you could try the following:

However, nothing in this post should be considered legal advice and you should always contact an experienced attorney regarding any legal matters. Also, never rely on legal advice taken from a forum post. Finally, nothing here should be taken as forming an attorney client relationship nor impose any obligation to any party.

First off, never admit to having an aftermarket exhaust. I don’t care if you have open tube headers sticking out of your hood. Even if the officer asks, you have a 5th amendment right against self incrimination.

This scenario assumes that you will not talk to the prosecutor or officer before your case is called. That may or may not be a good thing to do. But in this case, let’s just try and ambush them. Again, not always the best thing to do…

When your case is called wait for the officer to testify. After the officers testimony the judge will ask if you have any questions for the officer.

Keep in mind that you need to be disciplined and courteous to the judge and the officer. (Sorry Sndtgr08 I don’t think you could pull this off) Don’t go into a diatribe about your perceived injustice or your angst. Don’t give your side of the story. JUST ASK THE OFFICER STRAIGHT LEADING (YES OR NO ANSWERS) QUESTIONS. Assuming that all the officers answers are going to be no.

Can you describe the design of the exhaust system of a 2009 370Z?
Does the 370Z exhaust design utilize baffling? Chambering? Packed metal fibers? Resonators?
Can you describe the design of the exhaust system on my car?
Does the exhaust design on my car utilize baffling? Chambering? Packed metal fibers? Resonators?
How loud, in decibels, is a 370Z exhaust?
How loud, in decibels, is the exhaust on my car?
Does the police department have any device to gauge the decibels of sound or an exhaust? (this he may answer yes)
(if he answered yes) But in this case you chose not to utilize a decibel gauge?

Then you would tell the judge you have no further questions (I like to say “I’m done with this guy”). The Judge will then ask if you have anything to say (if he asks for a copy of your driving record from the cop you have already lost).

Your closing argument would be something like: Your honor, the Officer testified that he did not know the design of the 370Z exhaust or my exhaust. Also, he does not know the decibel level of a stock exhaust much less my exhaust. (now hand up a printed copy of the code section regarding exhausts). I don’t believe that the officer proved beyond a reasonable doubt that my exhaust was not of a comparable design or that it was louder than a stock exhaust.

Sndtgr08 · 04-16-2012, 07:25 PM

@ ResIpsa

Exactly the strait info I was looking for. Thank you!

UPDATE!

No the officer did not atempt to take a reading and I would venture to say they do not own one. I have this shipping to me now Amazon.com: USB Handy Digital Sound Noise Level Meter Decibel Pressure Logger with Tripod Mounting: Everything Else

I plan on taking readings at the interestion of the court house at various time of the day on a weekend, video it and log my results to get an average of what "normal" is, close enough that any officer from the court can duplucate my results. I also plan on setting it in a friends crown vic in the spot the officer was sitting and drive back and forth 10 times, on video to show that he could not hear me. I have also started a petition that I plan on getting all my neighbors to sign saying they feel my exhaust is not "excessive or unusual"

Before work today I went to the court house to subpoena the tapes of the cruiser. Of course the clerk knows the officer who pulled me over. This Clerk of the Court told me she had no clue what I was talking about and said she did not know what form to give me. I found this to be a load of crap as lawers subpoena for records all of the time. I told her that I am just a citizen and as Clerk of the court its your job and duty to provide me with the documents I need! It took me 10 minutes and me taking down her name on a piece of paper and writing "will not provide proper form" before she gave me a "Subpoena Duces Tecum" but refused to tell me exactly what the form is for, so I have some digging to do to make sure its the right form. ResIpsa, Whats the correct form? As I am reading it on line, it works for medical records and such...its used in divorce...Can it work against the State Trooper to provide the tapes and records?

After work today I went to the Culpeper State Police HQ and asked to speak with a supervisor. I was directed to the Sargents office in the building next door. After they sat me in the lobby I see that the officer that pulled me over was there! What luck! I can hear him tell the sargent the story of him pulling me over for my "Exhaust" and totaly skip the crazy hi speed chase over my licenece plate. About 10 minutes later(The Sarge pulled my perfectly clean driving record at this time) I was told to go in. He starts in on "You have a clean driving record, you know the ticket carries no points" I say "I am not here to talk to you about my ticket. I am here to talk to you about how your officers conduct them selfs." I went on to tell him the parts the street cop left out and told him that I did not want to file an official complaint. I just dont want the officer to wreck into the next person he tries to pull over or scare them or there children. He tells me "I take all compaints Very seriously, and you can be asured the officer will be repremanded. Nobody in my district has free reign to drive recklessly and endanger others. I give my officers no slack and I can assure you he will be delt with. I understand the officer was in the wrong, but you have to understand we are only human and do make mistakes." There is more, but then he goes on to tell me I should bring my original recipt for the exhaust to court and any other documantation I can provide to prove it is an exhaust made for my car and not some modified strait pipe. I asked him if he would like to come out to my car and hear it run, or even take it for a spin as I have nothing to hide, but he said he could not as it may in someway be interfering in the case.

EDIT:
"You cannot subpoena police records unless the subpoena is part of the discovery phase in a current legal matter, which means there will have to be both an open court case involving you, and a reason for you to subpoena police records (for example, if a police officer is a party to the lawsuit in regards to an auto accident)."

"Draft a Subpoena Duces Tecum, which is a subpoena ordering the police department to testify about certain evidence, or provide evidence like police records, recordings, and other tangible evidence in lieu of testifying. Clearly state which records you are requesting, full names, case or matter numbers, any date(s), time(s), or place(s) applicable to the records, and any other information that will help the police department determine exactly what records you are requesting. Sign the bottom, and create a signature line for a court agent or judge to sign."

This is getting exciting

I'll Update again when I have the petition and the test results from the Decibel Pressure reader.

final edit 8:56

ResIpsa · 04-17-2012, 10:28 AM

Most police cruisers do not carry audio/visual recording devices. I highly doubt that the Culpeper State Troopers have these.

And even if the Trooper had one, what is that going to prove? Forget the subpoena.

Also, that petition is complete heresay and inadmissable at trial.

You need to stay focused on what I posted earlier.

L8N8 · 05-08-2012, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sndtgr08

I understand the officer was in the wrong, but you have to understand we are only human and do make mistakes."

If that's true then you now also have the supervisor admitting that his officer was wrong for writing the ticket. Just something to tack on at the end of your closing argument.

Sndtgr08 · 05-23-2012, 03:20 PM

UPDATE!

I went to court today. The state trooper gave his edited report. I questioned the officer. He admited to knowing nothing about exhaust systems. He admited to knowing nothing about decibels. He admited to not having a decibel meter. I brought video proof that my car is no louder then then most other cars and quieter then many.

The only "evidence" brought against me was the trooper stating that he thought it "sounded loud".

The judge said he finds me guilty.

I ask him how can I be found guilty, by only the unprofessional opinion of one person? With no evidence against me, and me being with in the law, and standing there with proof of it?

He told me that it would be bad to get charged with contempt of court, for only a defective equipment charge.

I tell you all right now I have nothing but contempt for the court and the whole justice system. I went strait to the clercks window and filed an appeal. While doing that the next 2 sets of people who came out stopped and told me "Way to go" and "Good job" and could not believe what they just saw. I still cant believe it, how on Earth is that legal? We no longer need proof to convict someone of a crime. You just need someone to think you broke the law and BAM guilty.

04-16-2012, 08:32 AM	#1 (permalink)
ResIpsa Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 564 Drives: 09 RACING HEN Rep Power: 339	My Thoughts I have always wanted to try one of these cases. However, even if I charged almost nothing it would cost more to retain me than just pay the fine. The "or comparable to that designed for use on the particular vehicle as standard factory equipment” language should (in the real world) make these cases impossible for the prosecutor to prove. The statute should require the prosecutor to bring in an expert witness. In this case, probably a Nissan technician to testify about the design and noise level of the factory exhaust. Then the technician would have to testify about the design and noise level of the factory exhaust. In my opinion, this would also require a decibel gauge. Of course, the technician will have no expertise on the aftermarket exhaust. Therefore, the prosecutor would then need a separate expert witness for the aftermarket exhaust. That witness should be required to testify that the aftermarket exhaust is not “comparable to that designed for use” on a 370Z and that it is measurably louder. Unfortunately, this is not what happens in the real world. The cop just uses your statement that it is an aftermarket exhaust and testifies that, in his opinion, it was louder. If you want to fight this in court, you could try the following: However, nothing in this post should be considered legal advice and you should always contact an experienced attorney regarding any legal matters. Also, never rely on legal advice taken from a forum post. Finally, nothing here should be taken as forming an attorney client relationship nor impose any obligation to any party. First off, never admit to having an aftermarket exhaust. I don’t care if you have open tube headers sticking out of your hood. Even if the officer asks, you have a 5th amendment right against self incrimination. This scenario assumes that you will not talk to the prosecutor or officer before your case is called. That may or may not be a good thing to do. But in this case, let’s just try and ambush them. Again, not always the best thing to do… When your case is called wait for the officer to testify. After the officers testimony the judge will ask if you have any questions for the officer. Keep in mind that you need to be disciplined and courteous to the judge and the officer. (Sorry Sndtgr08 I don’t think you could pull this off) Don’t go into a diatribe about your perceived injustice or your angst. Don’t give your side of the story. JUST ASK THE OFFICER STRAIGHT LEADING (YES OR NO ANSWERS) QUESTIONS. Assuming that all the officers answers are going to be no. Can you describe the design of the exhaust system of a 2009 370Z? Does the 370Z exhaust design utilize baffling? Chambering? Packed metal fibers? Resonators? Can you describe the design of the exhaust system on my car? Does the exhaust design on my car utilize baffling? Chambering? Packed metal fibers? Resonators? How loud, in decibels, is a 370Z exhaust? How loud, in decibels, is the exhaust on my car? Does the police department have any device to gauge the decibels of sound or an exhaust? (this he may answer yes) (if he answered yes) But in this case you chose not to utilize a decibel gauge? Then you would tell the judge you have no further questions (I like to say “I’m done with this guy”). The Judge will then ask if you have anything to say (if he asks for a copy of your driving record from the cop you have already lost). Your closing argument would be something like: Your honor, the Officer testified that he did not know the design of the 370Z exhaust or my exhaust. Also, he does not know the decibel level of a stock exhaust much less my exhaust. (now hand up a printed copy of the code section regarding exhausts). I don’t believe that the officer proved beyond a reasonable doubt that my exhaust was not of a comparable design or that it was louder than a stock exhaust. __________________ The Reed Law Firm; Michael Fasano VA Attorney and Counselor at Law: A Virginia Traffic, Criminal, and Family Lawyer.https://reedlawva.com/

04-16-2012, 07:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Sndtgr08 Base Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 162 Drives: 2009 A/C 3.5 MT Rep Power: 14	@ ResIpsa Exactly the strait info I was looking for. Thank you! UPDATE! No the officer did not atempt to take a reading and I would venture to say they do not own one. I have this shipping to me now Amazon.com: USB Handy Digital Sound Noise Level Meter Decibel Pressure Logger with Tripod Mounting: Everything Else I plan on taking readings at the interestion of the court house at various time of the day on a weekend, video it and log my results to get an average of what "normal" is, close enough that any officer from the court can duplucate my results. I also plan on setting it in a friends crown vic in the spot the officer was sitting and drive back and forth 10 times, on video to show that he could not hear me. I have also started a petition that I plan on getting all my neighbors to sign saying they feel my exhaust is not "excessive or unusual" Before work today I went to the court house to subpoena the tapes of the cruiser. Of course the clerk knows the officer who pulled me over. This Clerk of the Court told me she had no clue what I was talking about and said she did not know what form to give me. I found this to be a load of crap as lawers subpoena for records all of the time. I told her that I am just a citizen and as Clerk of the court its your job and duty to provide me with the documents I need! It took me 10 minutes and me taking down her name on a piece of paper and writing "will not provide proper form" before she gave me a "Subpoena Duces Tecum" but refused to tell me exactly what the form is for, so I have some digging to do to make sure its the right form. ResIpsa, Whats the correct form? As I am reading it on line, it works for medical records and such...its used in divorce...Can it work against the State Trooper to provide the tapes and records? After work today I went to the Culpeper State Police HQ and asked to speak with a supervisor. I was directed to the Sargents office in the building next door. After they sat me in the lobby I see that the officer that pulled me over was there! What luck! I can hear him tell the sargent the story of him pulling me over for my "Exhaust" and totaly skip the crazy hi speed chase over my licenece plate. About 10 minutes later(The Sarge pulled my perfectly clean driving record at this time) I was told to go in. He starts in on "You have a clean driving record, you know the ticket carries no points" I say "I am not here to talk to you about my ticket. I am here to talk to you about how your officers conduct them selfs." I went on to tell him the parts the street cop left out and told him that I did not want to file an official complaint. I just dont want the officer to wreck into the next person he tries to pull over or scare them or there children. He tells me "I take all compaints Very seriously, and you can be asured the officer will be repremanded. Nobody in my district has free reign to drive recklessly and endanger others. I give my officers no slack and I can assure you he will be delt with. I understand the officer was in the wrong, but you have to understand we are only human and do make mistakes." There is more, but then he goes on to tell me I should bring my original recipt for the exhaust to court and any other documantation I can provide to prove it is an exhaust made for my car and not some modified strait pipe. I asked him if he would like to come out to my car and hear it run, or even take it for a spin as I have nothing to hide, but he said he could not as it may in someway be interfering in the case. EDIT: "You cannot subpoena police records unless the subpoena is part of the discovery phase in a current legal matter, which means there will have to be both an open court case involving you, and a reason for you to subpoena police records (for example, if a police officer is a party to the lawsuit in regards to an auto accident)." "Draft a Subpoena Duces Tecum, which is a subpoena ordering the police department to testify about certain evidence, or provide evidence like police records, recordings, and other tangible evidence in lieu of testifying. Clearly state which records you are requesting, full names, case or matter numbers, any date(s), time(s), or place(s) applicable to the records, and any other information that will help the police department determine exactly what records you are requesting. Sign the bottom, and create a signature line for a court agent or judge to sign." This is getting exciting I'll Update again when I have the petition and the test results from the Decibel Pressure reader. final edit 8:56 Last edited by Sndtgr08; 04-16-2012 at 07:56 PM.

04-17-2012, 10:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
ResIpsa Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 564 Drives: 09 RACING HEN Rep Power: 339	Most police cruisers do not carry audio/visual recording devices. I highly doubt that the Culpeper State Troopers have these. And even if the Trooper had one, what is that going to prove? Forget the subpoena. Also, that petition is complete heresay and inadmissable at trial. You need to stay focused on what I posted earlier. __________________ The Reed Law Firm; Michael Fasano VA Attorney and Counselor at Law: A Virginia Traffic, Criminal, and Family Lawyer.https://reedlawva.com/

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05-23-2012, 03:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
Sndtgr08 Base Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 162 Drives: 2009 A/C 3.5 MT Rep Power: 14	UPDATE! I went to court today. The state trooper gave his edited report. I questioned the officer. He admited to knowing nothing about exhaust systems. He admited to knowing nothing about decibels. He admited to not having a decibel meter. I brought video proof that my car is no louder then then most other cars and quieter then many. The only "evidence" brought against me was the trooper stating that he thought it "sounded loud". The judge said he finds me guilty. I ask him how can I be found guilty, by only the unprofessional opinion of one person? With no evidence against me, and me being with in the law, and standing there with proof of it? He told me that it would be bad to get charged with contempt of court, for only a defective equipment charge. I tell you all right now I have nothing but contempt for the court and the whole justice system. I went strait to the clercks window and filed an appeal. While doing that the next 2 sets of people who came out stopped and told me "Way to go" and "Good job" and could not believe what they just saw. I still cant believe it, how on Earth is that legal? We no longer need proof to convict someone of a crime. You just need someone to think you broke the law and BAM guilty.