phelan's 370Z (W.I.P.)

phelan · 12-12-2010, 04:55 PM

Now then, for the main culprit of my troubles...the charcoal canister.

Now I do not believe the JDM models HAVE this thing, so maybe that's playing into what's going on here. Also, KEEP IN MIND MY EXHAUST IS DIFFERENT THAN THE STANDARD R1 EXTRA. The secondary pipes (the ones I'm having issues with) have been enlarged by .5 inches to accommodate future forced induction plans. With that said, from what I see, it looks like even the regular version will have issues.

Here is the car as seen at Fontana Nissan when I took Rin in for service:

You can see the exhaust biting into the charcoal canister already. Here's a closer look at what is going on.

These pictures show pretty clearly what happened. The radiated heat from the exhaust pipes melted through a lot of it already, and the holes in the canister tripped the P0456 minor leak CEL code.

Due to the extreme hazard of driving around with this condition (this IS the fuel system we're dealing with here!), I bought a new canister and replaced it. Since we haven't figured out the whole clearance issue, we had to make do with moving the exhaust downwards to make it all fit and not melt.

The following is a bad angle, it looks like it's touching, but I have about .5 inches of space between the components.

Of course now there's black crud on the top of the exhaust piping

it will be unnoticeable when I fix it all, but for now it's pathetic.

phelan · 12-12-2010, 05:00 PM

Other thoughts:

-As mentioned, I think the USDM models are the only ones that need to be concerned with this. I don't think anybody else has a charcoal canister.

-This interference condition was NOT present during the time of installation. My theory is that the rubber hangars have contracted a bit since install, especially with the very light titanium exhaust that is now hanging from it. Remember, the titanium exhaust is less than half the weight of the stock exhaust. That's quite a bit less force per hangar. The one issue I still have with this would be the exhaust moving about an inch...doesn't seem like there was THAT much play in it, but I can't think of anything else that would cause this to happen.

-The interference was also not noticeable during installation possibly because we pulled down a bit on the exhaust, and stressed the hangars. Given they don't have a spring-like rebound rate, while the car was on the lift it didn't interfere. As time passed, it might have pulled it into the canister.

-The 350Z has similar issues on select exhausts, such as Stillen and GReddy. The solution for the 350Z crowd was to create a relocation bracket for the canister. I'm curious to know if the bracket would work on this. I might have to talk to Josh or Kyle on this one.

-The other alternative is to modify the canister itself. I took possession of the damaged canister I had on Rin since day 1, and I'm thinking if I can file down the affected area, I can eliminate the interference altogether. Thoughts?

-I'm open to any other ideas anybody has.

This isn't the happiest update I've been able to post, and honestly, I haven't driven the car around since I took it back from Fontana. Lots of issues with it right now, so it's best left alone in the garage until I get it fixed.

Any input would be very much appreciated

Spec Jay · 12-12-2010, 05:39 PM

ouch!

SkyZ · 12-12-2010, 07:57 PM

What about a heat shield or exhaust wrappings?

kevin1985912 · 12-12-2010, 08:34 PM

heat wrap will solve that problem, I used to have them on my yamaha R1 header and mid pipe, anyone has a R1 knows that the undertail exhaust will burn up your butt, after I wrap it, issue solved.

phelan · 12-12-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyZ

What about a heat shield or exhaust wrappings?

This would help, but I remain worried that since the exhaust is basically PUSHING on the charcoal canister, it won't be a 100% foolproof solution. I still think something needs to be modified...?

theDreamer · 12-12-2010, 09:39 PM

Can you bypass the canister or is the US model fuel system built around it?
If you must have it, the best bet would be then to try to move it away from the exhaust instead of modifying the exhaust.

phelan · 12-13-2010, 01:41 AM

I think we're stuck with it. I'm definitely against modding the exhaust directly. I'm trying to make the body and the misc. parts work around it.

370zproject · 12-13-2010, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin1985912

heat wrap will solve that problem, I used to have them on my yamaha R1 header and mid pipe, anyone has a R1 knows that the undertail exhaust will burn up your butt, after I wrap it, issue solved.

that or i would try to relocate it

LunaZ · 12-13-2010, 06:04 PM

Relocation seems like the best bet. That and I'd fabricate a heat shield as well.

christian370z · 12-13-2010, 06:17 PM

Phelan, did you ever find any evidence of that rock from GMR while you were under there? Sorry for going OT.

dropped1 · 12-13-2010, 06:27 PM

Make new mounts for the charcoal canister and extend the factory lines? That's probably you're best bet.

You could also maybe cut the "hump" off the melted one and epoxy some flat plastic to seal it and T both lines into the center inlet. Not sure how that would effect emissions or the sensors if any at all.

Back when I used to build custom trucks we used to just dump the charcoal canisters all together. But that was on older vehicles...

phelan · 12-13-2010, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christian370z

Phelan, did you ever find any evidence of that rock from GMR while you were under there? Sorry for going OT.

yes. it made me cry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropped1

Make new mounts for the charcoal canister and extend the factory lines? That's probably you're best bet.

You could also maybe cut the "hump" off the melted one and epoxy some flat plastic to seal it and T both lines into the center inlet. Not sure how that would effect emissions or the sensors if any at all.

Back when I used to build custom trucks we used to just dump the charcoal canisters all together. But that was on older vehicles...

i think this would be the cleanest way to do it. just need to go to the body shop and figure out where i can put it now.

i had already started to cut the inlet off and epoxy / RTV seal some flat plastic, but it wasn't coming out as nice as i wanted it to. plus, i hadn't thought of your point about the sensors, etc. if it's acting as part of the pressure vessel the sensor's calibrated against, i've no idea if it will trip CEL lights all day long.

i guess at this stage, i'm going to lose the car again for at least a week or two while we figure things out.

dropped1 · 12-13-2010, 07:03 PM

Well if it isn't aesthetically pleasing, you could just build a aluminum heat shield "box" to hide your handy work. I think it'd be worth a shot to see if it will cure your CEL.

FairladyZ10PG · 12-15-2010, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phelan

Other thoughts:

-This interference condition was NOT present during the time of installation. My theory is that the rubber hangars have contracted a bit since install, especially with the very light titanium exhaust that is now hanging from it. Remember, the titanium exhaust is less than half the weight of the stock exhaust. That's quite a bit less force per hangar. The one issue I still have with this would be the exhaust moving about an inch...doesn't seem like there was THAT much play in it, but I can't think of anything else that would cause this to happen.

-The interference was also not noticeable during installation possibly because we pulled down a bit on the exhaust, and stressed the hangars. Given they don't have a spring-like rebound rate, while the car was on the lift it didn't interfere. As time passed, it might have pulled it into the canister.

I'm obviously not a professional so don't laugh if this sounds stupid.

But how about using a longer rubber hangar that is long enough to compensate for the contraction so that it would remain in the same position as when you first installed it. I think this would be the easiest and cheapest way to resolve your issue with the cannister interfering with your exhaust pipe. I think as long as your pipes don't come in contact with your cannister you shouldn't have problems with exhaust heat melting the cannister again.

12-12-2010, 04:55 PM	#361 (permalink)
phelan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Age: 38 Posts: 9,513 Drives: Scoobaroo Rep Power: 3406	Now then, for the main culprit of my troubles...the charcoal canister. Now I do not believe the JDM models HAVE this thing, so maybe that's playing into what's going on here. Also, KEEP IN MIND MY EXHAUST IS DIFFERENT THAN THE STANDARD R1 EXTRA. The secondary pipes (the ones I'm having issues with) have been enlarged by .5 inches to accommodate future forced induction plans. With that said, from what I see, it looks like even the regular version will have issues. Here is the car as seen at Fontana Nissan when I took Rin in for service: You can see the exhaust biting into the charcoal canister already. Here's a closer look at what is going on. These pictures show pretty clearly what happened. The radiated heat from the exhaust pipes melted through a lot of it already, and the holes in the canister tripped the P0456 minor leak CEL code. Due to the extreme hazard of driving around with this condition (this IS the fuel system we're dealing with here!), I bought a new canister and replaced it. Since we haven't figured out the whole clearance issue, we had to make do with moving the exhaust downwards to make it all fit and not melt. The following is a bad angle, it looks like it's touching, but I have about .5 inches of space between the components. Of course now there's black crud on the top of the exhaust piping it will be unnoticeable when I fix it all, but for now it's pathetic. __________________ 凛 ('Rin') - 2009 Nissan 370Z With silence comes peace. With peace comes freedom. With freedom comes silence. Last edited by phelan; 12-12-2010 at 05:02 PM.

12-12-2010, 05:00 PM	#362 (permalink)
phelan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Age: 38 Posts: 9,513 Drives: Scoobaroo Rep Power: 3406	Other thoughts: -As mentioned, I think the USDM models are the only ones that need to be concerned with this. I don't think anybody else has a charcoal canister. -This interference condition was NOT present during the time of installation. My theory is that the rubber hangars have contracted a bit since install, especially with the very light titanium exhaust that is now hanging from it. Remember, the titanium exhaust is less than half the weight of the stock exhaust. That's quite a bit less force per hangar. The one issue I still have with this would be the exhaust moving about an inch...doesn't seem like there was THAT much play in it, but I can't think of anything else that would cause this to happen. -The interference was also not noticeable during installation possibly because we pulled down a bit on the exhaust, and stressed the hangars. Given they don't have a spring-like rebound rate, while the car was on the lift it didn't interfere. As time passed, it might have pulled it into the canister. -The 350Z has similar issues on select exhausts, such as Stillen and GReddy. The solution for the 350Z crowd was to create a relocation bracket for the canister. I'm curious to know if the bracket would work on this. I might have to talk to Josh or Kyle on this one. -The other alternative is to modify the canister itself. I took possession of the damaged canister I had on Rin since day 1, and I'm thinking if I can file down the affected area, I can eliminate the interference altogether. Thoughts? -I'm open to any other ideas anybody has. This isn't the happiest update I've been able to post, and honestly, I haven't driven the car around since I took it back from Fontana. Lots of issues with it right now, so it's best left alone in the garage until I get it fixed. Any input would be very much appreciated __________________ 凛 ('Rin') - 2009 Nissan 370Z With silence comes peace. With peace comes freedom. With freedom comes silence.

12-12-2010, 05:39 PM	#363 (permalink)
Spec Jay A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Bummerton Posts: 1,510 Drives: MtB 09 370z Rep Power: 19	ouch! __________________ 09 Monterey Blue Global Time Attack Street Class Build Build Thread:Saber! Instagram:@SpecJay

12-12-2010, 08:34 PM	#365 (permalink)
kevin1985912 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: san diego Age: 39 Posts: 285 Drives: 370zMT touring sport Rep Power: 16	heat wrap will solve that problem, I used to have them on my yamaha R1 header and mid pipe, anyone has a R1 knows that the undertail exhaust will burn up your butt, after I wrap it, issue solved. __________________ FI non resonated test pipes, CBE. Stillen G3 intakes, Amuse Kit, KW V3 coilovers, SSR Type F, Blackout headlights. 3M clear bra, UpRev tune, 320whp, 260 wtq http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...ect-raven.html

12-12-2010, 09:39 PM	#367 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4210	Can you bypass the canister or is the US model fuel system built around it? If you must have it, the best bet would be then to try to move it away from the exhaust instead of modifying the exhaust. __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

12-12-2010, 07:57 PM	#364 (permalink)
SkyZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 382 Drives: 09 370z PG M6 Rep Power: 16	What about a heat shield or exhaust wrappings?

12-13-2010, 01:41 AM	#368 (permalink)
phelan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Age: 38 Posts: 9,513 Drives: Scoobaroo Rep Power: 3406	I think we're stuck with it. I'm definitely against modding the exhaust directly. I'm trying to make the body and the misc. parts work around it. __________________ 凛 ('Rin') - 2009 Nissan 370Z With silence comes peace. With peace comes freedom. With freedom comes silence.

12-13-2010, 06:04 PM	#370 (permalink)
LunaZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Vagabond Posts: 6,704 Drives: Project: a white one Rep Power: 512	Relocation seems like the best bet. That and I'd fabricate a heat shield as well. __________________ 2009 370Z Sport/Touring/Navigation \| see my journal for mods facebook: Be my friend... or not.

12-13-2010, 06:17 PM	#371 (permalink)
christian370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Newport Beach Posts: 3,900 Drives: 2010 370Z/Saab 900se Rep Power: 432	Phelan, did you ever find any evidence of that rock from GMR while you were under there? Sorry for going OT. __________________ -320whp / 259wftlbs- SP Rays -- RE-11s -- SpecialtyZ Tune -- Swift Springs -- Stillen 25R Oil Cooler -- Stillen G3 Intakes -- Berk HFCs -- F.I. 12" CBE -- Stillen Sway Bars -- Es14 Spring -- INGS+1 lip -- CF Spoiler -- GTR Start Button -- VLED Parking Lights -- PWJDM V2 shift knob

12-13-2010, 06:27 PM	#372 (permalink)
dropped1 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: VA Beach Posts: 302 Drives: SOLD 40th Z #104 Rep Power: 258	Make new mounts for the charcoal canister and extend the factory lines? That's probably you're best bet. You could also maybe cut the "hump" off the melted one and epoxy some flat plastic to seal it and T both lines into the center inlet. Not sure how that would effect emissions or the sensors if any at all. Back when I used to build custom trucks we used to just dump the charcoal canisters all together. But that was on older vehicles... __________________ Aaron Do you own a 40th anniversary? Join the club!

12-13-2010, 07:03 PM	#374 (permalink)
dropped1 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: VA Beach Posts: 302 Drives: SOLD 40th Z #104 Rep Power: 258	Well if it isn't aesthetically pleasing, you could just build a aluminum heat shield "box" to hide your handy work. I think it'd be worth a shot to see if it will cure your CEL. __________________ Aaron Do you own a 40th anniversary? Join the club!