Mt Tam I am's Driving Journal

Mt Tam I am · 05-22-2013, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

As long as we're talking about spins, I exported a couple small clips from other parts of my last weekend's track data:

This first part is me making a big error. I was off-line and couldn't hold it, was inevitable I'd drop two wheels on the outside, but I kept trying to hold it on track instead of safely driving off. This resulted in me re-crossing the track, which is pretty damn dangerous. I've done better about this in past incidents, but my mind wasn't in the right place this time around:

Me going off-track on both sides - YouTube
You analyzed the video well. You needed to get off the gas when you missed the apex. Your tires were off track by less than the amount of track you missed at the apex.

And then here's another guy doing the same sort of thing right in front of me, in a different session. Notice that I brake a little until I'm sure where his car is going (well that and dropping a little speed gives you some excess traction for emergency corrections), then push on through immediately:

Once you figure out he is going left you go right. Perfect. My Miata was going off track then he came back to go right and then stayed left.

Spin in front of me: TWS CW - YouTube

Here is my first event. It was raining and a Z comes on track with, I assume cold tires. Goto 7:50 please.
My first HPDE day: Racing 370Z at Sears Point in the rain Part 1 - YouTube

Let's keep tracking the 370Z!!!

JARblue · 05-22-2013, 10:39 AM

Great analyses, y'all!

blackcherry20 · 05-22-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

Here is my first event. It was raining and a Z comes on track with, I assume cold tires. Goto 7:50 please.
My first HPDE day: Racing 370Z at Sears Point in the rain Part 1 - YouTube

Let's keep tracking the 370Z!!!

your excitement is contagious Tam!! LOL!

Dang it. My Z is home in the garage!! pffft.

Mt Tam I am · 05-22-2013, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Yeah it's all tricky judgement calls out there, and you were kinda put in a bad situation given the passing rules and the two cars slowing way down in front of you.

Given time to watch a video over and over (which says nothing about what you might do in a split second on the track), probably the ideal call was to blast on past that whole scene on the far right as soon as it was obvious the Lotus and Mustang were braking down to like 10mph. At that point you may as well consider them part of the incident rather than cars to obey passing rules with. But it all depends on the group and the drivers and the track marshal and how the weekend's been going and that conversation 20 minutes earlier in the paddock and and and...

It's just good to analyze afterwards and think these things through and prepare your mindset for the inevitable next 10 or 20 times you'll be placed in situations that require that sort of judgement call.

In the moment the Miata was three cars ahead and I must admit to paying less attention to him. On the video it starts sooner than my brain realized. Not by much, but moments earlier. Then much vision was blocked too by the two cars. I was not sure if the Miata was spinning towards the inside or what. I kept telling the little lady about what had happened and I just could not figure it out. I kept bringing it up trying to replay it in my mind. She made fun of me a little bit.

After 27 hours I got to see the video. It was the switch back that I didn't get. I thought it more than a 360 degree spin and must be 720 but is that what happened? No. Thank goodness for film.

wstar · 05-22-2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

Me going off-track on both sides - YouTube
You analyzed the video well. You needed to get off the gas when you missed the apex. Your tires were off track by less than the amount of track you missed at the apex.

There are a lot of subtleties going on in that situation though. Around the apex and beyond, I really was at the traction limit of my fading front tires, but maybe not the rear, hard to say. If I had *just* lifted the throttle, the back end might've come around on the left and made things worse. In the moment, I didn't think that the amount I could safely lift the throttle by would be enough to save it. Not that what I did do was much better: I tried to hold the throttle steady and force the car to stay on the road with the steering wheel, which almost never works.

If I had straightened the steering wheel first (to avoid the back end stepping out on throttle lift), and *then* lifted and hit the brakes, I might've shed enough speed (heading in a straight line towards where my wheels went off) that I could've slowed and turned back onto the line at reduced speed. And if I didn't shed enough speed, at least I'd have been more likely to keep going straight off the track instead of what I did.

Either way, at the moment just before the wheels went off the pavement, I should've had the steering wheel dead straight to avoid getting ripped back across the traffic path on the track like I did (due to the pavement wheels suddenly having a lot more grip than the grass wheels). A straight drive off into the grass would've been fine, but cutting back across isn't.

blackcherry20 · 05-22-2013, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

There are a lot of subtleties going on in that situation though. Around the apex and beyond, I really was at the traction limit of my fading front tires, but maybe not the rear, hard to say. If I had *just* lifted the throttle, the back end might've come around on the left and made things worse. In the moment, I didn't think that the amount I could safely lift the throttle by would be enough to save it. Not that what I did do was much better: I tried to hold the throttle steady and force the car to stay on the road with the steering wheel, which almost never works.

If I had straightened the steering wheel first (to avoid the back end stepping out on throttle lift), and *then* lifted and hit the brakes, I might've shed enough speed (heading in a straight line towards where my wheels went off) that I could've slowed and turned back onto the line at reduced speed. And if I didn't shed enough speed, at least I'd have been more likely to keep going straight off the track instead of what I did.

Either way, at the moment just before the wheels went off the pavement, I should've had the steering wheel dead straight to avoid getting ripped back across the traffic path on the track like I did. A straight drive off into the grass would've been fine, but cutting back across isn't.

I'm learning as you guys experience! TY!

ChrisSlicks · 05-22-2013, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

If I had straightened the steering wheel first (to avoid the back end stepping out on throttle lift), and *then* lifted and hit the brakes, I might've shed enough speed (heading in a straight line towards where my wheels went off) that I could've slowed and turned back onto the line at reduced speed. And if I didn't shed enough speed, at least I'd have been more likely to keep going straight off the track instead of what I did.

Either way, at the moment just before the wheels went off the pavement, I should've had the steering wheel dead straight to avoid getting ripped back across the traffic path on the track like I did (due to the pavement wheels suddenly having a lot more grip than the grass wheels). A straight drive off into the grass would've been fine, but cutting back across isn't.

It's a tough call sometimes. You blew the apex and you knew it right away, there are a couple of choices. You can straighten out the wheel and apply a bit of brake to get yourself slowed down enough to get around the corner, you can lift a little and hope you have enough rear traction (okay for very minor corrections but wouldn't recommend for this one), or if you are damn sure you aren't going to make it just get the wheel straight and lock them up and go off in a straight line if you have the run off. The last thing you want is to go 2 wheels off and then spin back across the track. Not only are you unpredictable to the traffic behind you but I've also seen a lot of nice cars collect concrete barriers on the inside of a corner from such spins.

Speaking of spins, here is my latest attempt. Only went 180 and then brought it back. Jump to 1:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45OBCtEmYQk

Mt Tam I am · 05-23-2013, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

It's a tough call sometimes. You blew the apex and you knew it right away, there are a couple of choices. You can straighten out the wheel and apply a bit of brake to get yourself slowed down enough to get around the corner, you can lift a little and hope you have enough rear traction (okay for very minor corrections but wouldn't recommend for this one), or if you are damn sure you aren't going to make it just get the wheel straight and lock them up and go off in a straight line if you have the run off. The last thing you want is to go 2 wheels off and then spin back across the track. Not only are you unpredictable to the traffic behind you but I've also seen a lot of nice cars collect concrete barriers on the inside of a corner from such spins.

Speaking of spins, here is my latest attempt. Only went 180 and then brought it back. Jump to 1:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45OBCtEmYQk

Nice job.

You my friend like to push it to the limit and would recommend staying off the paint later in the vid but I am now talking to the master and should not be making suggestions I am sure.

I did save myself once with a three wheel off by keeping my hands at 3 & 9. Watching a wall approach is no fun either. I came back on straight and not across the track. Knowing where straight is helps.

blackcherry20 · 05-23-2013, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

Nice job.

You my friend like to push it to the limit and would recommend staying off the paint later in the vid but I am now talking to the master and should not be making suggestions I am sure.

I did save myself once with a three wheel off by keeping my hands at 3 & 9. Watching a wall approach is no fun either. I came back on straight and not across the track. Knowing where straight is helps.

knowing the track and where you are=imperative...must keep your wits about you. My dad taught me: NEVER stop driving. (I.E. letting go of the steering wheel and screaming like a girl is NOT what to do!)

ChrisSlicks · 05-23-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

Nice job.

You my friend like to push it to the limit and would recommend staying off the paint later in the vid but I am now talking to the master and should not be making suggestions I am sure.

I did save myself once with a three wheel off by keeping my hands at 3 & 9. Watching a wall approach is no fun either. I came back on straight and not across the track. Knowing where straight is helps.

In the rain I'm usually the fastest car on track, although a lot of that is having real racing rain tires. In this particular case I was already lined up for the time trial with slicks on when it started raining so it was a lot slower for sure and very sketchy. The exit of turn 3 was the only time I would put wheels on the paint as it was more worn down there, anywhere else would result in instant wheel spin.

I've been impressed with the pace you've quickly shown on track, you've definitely picked it up very quickly. I'm also very jealous that you get to drive Lacuna Seca!

blackcherry20 · 05-23-2013, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

In the rain I'm usually the fastest car on track, although a lot of that is having real racing rain tires. In this particular case I was already lined up for the time trial with slicks on when it started raining so it was a lot slower for sure and very sketchy. The exit of turn 3 was the only time I would put wheels on the paint as it was more worn down there, anywhere else would result in instant wheel spin.

I've been impressed with the pace you've quickly shown on track, you've definitely picked it up very quickly. I'm also very jealous that you get to drive Lacuna Seca!

Mt Tam I am · 05-23-2013, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

In the rain I'm usually the fastest car on track, although a lot of that is having real racing rain tires. In this particular case I was already lined up for the time trial with slicks on when it started raining so it was a lot slower for sure and very sketchy. The exit of turn 3 was the only time I would put wheels on the paint as it was more worn down there, anywhere else would result in instant wheel spin.

I've been impressed with the pace you've quickly shown on track, you've definitely picked it up very quickly. I'm also very jealous that you get to drive Lacuna Seca!

Thank you. I would love to extend an invite to you if ever you want to go with me to Laguna Seca. To add to your jealousy, I will be back on June third. This will be the last Laguna till next year.

Sears Point in September, if you are out here by some miracle.

Mt Tam I am · 05-23-2013, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackcherry20

knowing the track and where you are=imperative...must keep your wits about you. My dad taught me: NEVER stop driving. (I.E. letting go of the steering wheel and screaming like a girl is NOT what to do!)

I too have said that my whole life. But keep driving even though you want to quit and hit reset. The last saved game mentality won't work.

Years ago my friend actually threw up his hands and waited for the impact. I grabbed the wheel and swerved away from the telephone pole and into a ditch/field. We drove out with us four guys lifting and pushing, and I was a hero initially.

He blamed me later at a party in front of others and wanted compensation for his air dam. Until my 30 year high school reunion, I never spoke with him again.

Mt Tam I am · 05-29-2013, 12:33 AM

I had my car detailed this weekend. It absolutely needed it after a couple track days. I'm back to the track on Monday in style.

I had dinner with mom tonight, and as I left a Prius pulled out in front of me and I used those brakes hard. He waited at the light till it turned yellow (this is not the first time either a hybrid) and took off. I went with him through the light. At the next light he tried to drag race me to my favorite turn. I love this perfect 180 degree turn and usually get stuck behind another who doesn't see the beauty I do. I fully enjoyed this turn to myself.

Although I saw the new Jaguar F type today, it was a supercharged XK that attempted to school me on the way home tonight. When the limit hit 55 MPH he nailed it and you could tell he was surprised I stayed with him. I could see him looking at me instead of looking at the hard left approaching. He only handled the turn by cutting it, which is a no no for me on that turn. He pulled off shortly thereafter.

This left the road wide open on a beautiful warm day. I assure you I used my car to the fullest.

blackcherry20 · 05-29-2013, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mt Tam I am

I had my car detailed this weekend. It absolutely needed it after a couple track days. I'm back to the track on Monday in style.

I had dinner with mom tonight, and as I left a Prius pulled out in front of me and I used those brakes hard. He waited at the light till it turned yellow (this is not the first time either a hybrid) and took off. I went with him through the light. At the next light he tried to drag race me to my favorite turn. I love this perfect 180 degree turn and usually get stuck behind another who doesn't see the beauty I do. I fully enjoyed this turn to myself.

Although I saw the new Jaguar F type today, it was a supercharged XK that attempted to school me on the way home tonight. When the limit hit 55 MPH he nailed it and you could tell he was surprised I stayed with him. I could see him looking at me instead of looking at the hard left approaching. He only handled the turn by cutting it, which is a no no for me on that turn. He pulled off shortly thereafter.

This left the road wide open on a beautiful warm day. I assure you I used my car to the fullest.

sigh.

I can feel a new story coming on...patience grasshopper.

05-22-2013, 10:39 AM	#212 (permalink)
JARblue A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Austin, TX Age: 43 Posts: 36,450 Drives: 11 Z34, 98 E36 M3 Rep Power: 2684440	Great analyses, y'all! Mt Tam I am likes this. __________________ 2011 370Z 6MT Sport Gun Metallic \| ARC \| CJM \| Ecutek \| FI \| Fujimura \| R2C \| SPL \| Stillen \| TWM \| Z1 \| ZSpeed \|

05-29-2013, 12:33 AM	#224 (permalink)
Mt Tam I am A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: California Posts: 10,709 Drives: 370Z T/S/N 6MT & XKE Rep Power: 3843	I had my car detailed this weekend. It absolutely needed it after a couple track days. I'm back to the track on Monday in style. I had dinner with mom tonight, and as I left a Prius pulled out in front of me and I used those brakes hard. He waited at the light till it turned yellow (this is not the first time either a hybrid) and took off. I went with him through the light. At the next light he tried to drag race me to my favorite turn. I love this perfect 180 degree turn and usually get stuck behind another who doesn't see the beauty I do. I fully enjoyed this turn to myself. Although I saw the new Jaguar F type today, it was a supercharged XK that attempted to school me on the way home tonight. When the limit hit 55 MPH he nailed it and you could tell he was surprised I stayed with him. I could see him looking at me instead of looking at the hard left approaching. He only handled the turn by cutting it, which is a no no for me on that turn. He pulled off shortly thereafter. This left the road wide open on a beautiful warm day. I assure you I used my car to the fullest. blackcherry20 likes this. __________________ "Does the carpet match the drapes? NO!!! I don't date bald women." Nissan Motorsports 34R Oil Cooler. Stillen CBE. Hotchkis Sport Sway Bars. KW Variant 3 Coilover System. Stillen Gen3 CAI. Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Stillen Brake Ducts. Carbotech™ XP10/XP8 Pads. Z1 Front Rotors. Z1 Stainless Brake Lines. Two degrees of camber

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