wstar's Journal

wstar · 05-23-2014, 04:17 PM

Totally different, for the record

wstar · 05-26-2014, 03:06 PM

Quote:

You must had a good run then come to a stop suddenly.

Good point to reinforce there. Warmup and Cooldown are very important if you're stressing the car. All kinds of things can go wrong if you stress a cold car, or if you shut down a very hot car. Most track sessions I warm up the car at idle on the grid *at least* enough to get the water gauge up in a normal-ish range, and then the oil comes up during the warmup lap first session of the day (or it's already pretty warm later). Then I always take a cooldown lap where I try to avoid braking, and keep the engine revs lower while the oil/water temps drop back off. Usually by the time I shut off, water's back down to ~203 and oil's back down to ~210.

Eagle · 05-27-2014, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Good point to reinforce there. Warmup and Cooldown are very important if you're stressing the car. All kinds of things can go wrong if you stress a cold car, or if you shut down a very hot car. Most track sessions I warm up the car at idle on the grid *at least* enough to get the water gauge up in a normal-ish range, and then the oil comes up during the warmup lap first session of the day (or it's already pretty warm later). Then I always take a cooldown lap where I try to avoid braking, and keep the engine revs lower while the oil/water temps drop back off. Usually by the time I shut off, water's back down to ~203 and oil's back down to ~210.

Definitely important! I did do an outlap/cool down lap and then I had to drop off my instructor back at registration so he could jump in his car and go pick up all the massacred cones.

After dropping him off I left the engine idling and didn't shutdown the car, probably for 5 to 10 minutes at least. I also left the hood up so it could ventilate a bit more

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

wstar · 05-26-2014, 03:08 PM

Also, while the diagnostic investigation over at Baker North probably isn't complete yet, it's looking like more than just a flywheel+sensor on my car. There's a good chance there's damaged crank bearings or something along those lines. I'm not sure how sure they are yet as to cause and effect. Looks like the 7AT may have outlived the engine! I'm sure I'll know more in a couple of days.

wstar · 05-27-2014, 05:50 PM

So, it looks like I did spin a crank bearing (in addition to (probably as an after-effect of) having flywheel damage). Nissan won't warranty the engine, of course, but I can hardly blame them on a car like mine. Even asking was mostly a shot in the dark.

So, I've got some heavy thinking to do on options here. The factors in play are money (of course!) and time (two events I really wanted to make in the latter half of June, not blowing the rest of the schedule for the year, and in general not spending months off the track with fading skills).

The first routes that come to mind and/or are useful for comparison:

The Fast Options:

a) Have the dealership drop in a brand-new long block from Nissan at my expense. They quoted me around $11-12K plus tax for that, including swapping over my current intake/header setup, baffled oil pan, etc. The upside is the block could be here quickly, the job can get done quickly and correctly (this is Jason @ Baker, I trust his work, and he can get the whole swap done in a day or two. He's dropped the engine out of my car before, and he's the only guy who's worked on it other than me, aside from the cage welding over at Lucas Racing). It seems like a lot of money just to get back roughly where I was before the incident but with a fresher engine. It's also the kind of money I don't have laying around to blow on this problem right now, although I could probably find ways to scrounge it up by making a few unwise financial decisions in other areas.

b) Basically as above, but have them drop in a working used VQ37 block from parts search at salvage lots. The engine wouldn't be as fresh, it might only last another year for all I know. It would probably knock a bunch off the price above, but I'm not sure how much yet. They're calling around and looking into it now.
The slower options, which might leave the car down for an indefinite period of time, during which I'd have to give up the track schedule or buy a really cheap backup track car, or maybe do a reduced schedule using some kind of rental cars. All of that adds cost and lost track time (or re-learning a new car setting me back a little) to the overall picture as well:

a) Fix this engine. Tear it apart, figure out what's broken, buy parts and have a good engine guy rebuild it stronger (there are a couple around town that could do the job). Known-broken parts (crank, flywheel, etc) are going to run ~$2K for sure, plus whatever else is broken. I suspect there wasn't much secondary damage from bearing parts going all over the place - I think we had a catastrophic failure of that bearing (probably from crankshaft wobble/vibration from the failing flywheel) and immediate rev limit from the bad crank sensor input and not much else. It sounded almost healthy idling after the incident. May as well have the engine builder beef up the internals for the long haul while they're in there. Not even sure what the total cost would be, but it would probably be at least a month-long process (if not more!) when you count in parts delays, etc. Probably considerably cheaper than a new longblock from Nissan, and definitely more reliable than tossing in a random junkyard block.

b) Screw the VQ. I'm not a Nissan purist, so dropping in an LS1+T56 is an option. I know I can get a cheap running engine. There's some fab work to do on engine/trans mounts and driveshaft, unless someone's made a kit already or is willing to use me as a test customer. I'd probably want to beef up the diff at the same time (which was an eventual plan anyways) to handle the torque. I'd probably run some random custom/race ECU for the LS, ditch the stock gauge cluster, etc. Given the car is *completely* gutted and staying that way, the re-wiring and all that isn't as hard as it would normally be. This option would take multiple months for sure, especially if I do most of it myself, which I'm somewhat inclined to do if I go down this road. I'd have to plan on not having a working 370 until sometime in 2015 and then see if maybe I can surprise myself and get it done a little earlier than that.

With all the ancillary parts involved + fabrication, this is probably more expensive than a brand-new VQ37 longblock from Nissan, but I probably wouldn't feel it as bad spreading it out over several months, and the end result would be way cooler.
Sell/Part-out the Z, sell off all the Z-specific things around here, use the proceeds to buy a cheap used track car that's already running and never look back. Probably the smart choice, but could take a while as well. I'd sell the racecar to someone who wants to do one of the options above or part it out. There's a ton of value in the aftermarket bits in this car: the JRZ coilovers, AP Racing brake kit, the rare AM Performance baffled oil pan, CJM's anti-fuel-starve kit, 4 sets of wheels, all the engine bolt-ons, swaybars, upper control arms, the Sparco seats + harnesses + steering wheel, etc, etc.

There's also a fair amount of value in the package as a whole, even with the engine problem outstanding, just because all these parts are already installed and working well together, and the gutting and cage work is already done (and the cage is really top-notch). More than enough to cover a typical cheaper trackday car like a prepped 90's Miata or whatever I happen to find on the market at the time, so long as it's rear-wheel drive.
I try to convince myself that I've had a good run at an interesting hobby here with the road-racing thing, but that keeping up with this in the long run at an aggressive level isn't something I'm financially equipped for. Maybe instead of throwing good money after bad, I could write off everything I've put in so far as a pretty fair deal for a pretty awesome experience over the past few years and some new driving skills I'll carry with me for the rest of my life, and just sell out. Maybe start another hobby less demanding of my time and money, like collecting enough gold bars to pave my entire front yard and then cleaning them every day.

If I went option 4, I'd sell off the Z and/or parts as in option 3, then also sell the enclosed trailer + a bunch of tools I'll never use enough if I'm not doing this hobby anymore (including a low-rise lift), maybe even trade down the expensive diesel towtruck for something more reasonable.

Rusty · 05-27-2014, 06:28 PM

I would do 2A. You already have a track car that you know well, and have top shelf parts in it. You'll end up with having a bullet proof VQ motor.

Buying another track car. Who knows what you might get in to with it. It could be more $$$ then you think in the long run.

Doing the GM motor swap. Sounds good when you talk about. But it will take time and $$$ to finish it. And you could lose your feeling for the sport while doing the swap.

You will never get you money back out of it when selling your parts. And time you've put in to it also. Unless you want out of the sport all together.

You and everone else that tracks a car should know that broken parts is part of the game. You always hope that it will never happen to you. But when it does. Be prepared to bit the bullet.

sig11 · 05-27-2014, 06:21 PM

Man that's a tough spot. If it were me I would probably go with option 3. It's far cheaper to buy a built car than to build one yourself and having a car you can write off without such a big loss is nice (I wrecked my 350Z race car this weekend and still managed to smile for a photo of it in the trees since I don't have nearly as much in it as my 370.).

Option 4 might be the wisest but at least in my case I don't think I could give up racing. That Peter Egan quote - "Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" says it all.

VoBoy · 05-28-2014, 02:14 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but was the failure due to the AT transmission? Do the same issues exist with the 6MT? I just haven't heard of many Z's with engine failures.

I'm sure you could quickly source an engine and transmission. Nissan Unlimited usually has stock. (Near 290 and Beltway 8) So my vote is 1b. If it was my car I'd do that.

You are a better man that me if you can walk away from this sport without some kinda rehab program.

On the flip side, owning a miata is cheap

you can probably sell off your Z stuff and use a fraction of it on a built miata.

wstar · 05-28-2014, 03:40 PM

I don't think the failure is really 7AT-related, but I guess the answer to that question is a matter of opinion.

Keep in mind nobody's opened up the engine or even the bellhousing yet, this is all based on an experienced, trustworthy 370Z mechanic's opinion that a main bearing is spun based on the sound, and that the flywheel is damaged by looking through the bellhousing access holes. I 99% trust he's right on both counts.

Given the audio data from the datalogger late Saturday (where the engine was operating fine in terms of revs and performance, but there was a buzzing/grinding noise), I think the flywheel failed first, and then the imbalance/drag from that affected the crank and caused the eventual spun crank bearing within a couple sessions after the flywheel got bad. The flywheel *is* different on the 6MT and the 7AT, obviously (the 7AT has a "drive plate" that the torque convertor bolts to, it's a different part number than the 6MT flywheel). I've seen reports of cracked driveplates on 7AT's elsewhere (e.g. Megan's here: 7AT Owner , look at this ! ). The 7AT itself is supposedly still in good shape right now, but perhaps there's a weakness in the 7AT-specific driveplates under heavy loads at the track.

wstar · 05-28-2014, 03:42 PM

BTW, Option 1b with a salvage block is in the ballpark of $7K installed (~$5K of that in parts). Better than ~$11-12K for the new block, but still a lot of cash, especially for an engine of unknown durability going forward. Next thing I want to look into is what an engine rebuild shop would charge to rebuild mine and make it stronger, and how long the process would take assuming no unexpected parts damage.

wstar · 05-28-2014, 04:04 PM

I think I might be able to find a cheaper salvage engine than they did. The plan that's starting to form here is throw a cheaper salvage engine in for right now, maybe get the cost down to ~$4-5K installed, and I could still make my June events (one of which is expensive and non-refundable). Then keep my old engine and work on tearing it down and rebuilding it slowly as a stronger replacement for down the road when the salvage one dies.

VoBoy · 05-28-2014, 04:45 PM

How about $700?
2007 Infiniti G37 Engine

2009 infinity g37 parts

jwick · 05-28-2014, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VoBoy

How about $700?
2007 Infiniti G37 Engine

2009 infinity g37 parts

Something fishy about that. The VQ37HR first came in the 2008 G37 Coupe. 2007 should have been a VQ35HR.

theDreamer · 05-28-2014, 05:05 PM

Saw your car at Baker today hiding in the corner.
I think you can find the engine plus parts for a lot less used, I think the salvaged engine plus re-building the current in spare time is the best option.

wstar · 05-29-2014, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer

Saw your car at Baker today hiding in the corner.

What were you down there for?

Did you get to see the cage in the car? I don't think you've seen it since then.

05-23-2014, 04:17 PM	#1 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Totally different, for the record __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-26-2014, 03:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Also, while the diagnostic investigation over at Baker North probably isn't complete yet, it's looking like more than just a flywheel+sensor on my car. There's a good chance there's damaged crank bearings or something along those lines. I'm not sure how sure they are yet as to cause and effect. Looks like the 7AT may have outlived the engine! I'm sure I'll know more in a couple of days. Eagle likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-27-2014, 05:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	So, it looks like I did spin a crank bearing (in addition to (probably as an after-effect of) having flywheel damage). Nissan won't warranty the engine, of course, but I can hardly blame them on a car like mine. Even asking was mostly a shot in the dark. So, I've got some heavy thinking to do on options here. The factors in play are money (of course!) and time (two events I really wanted to make in the latter half of June, not blowing the rest of the schedule for the year, and in general not spending months off the track with fading skills). The first routes that come to mind and/or are useful for comparison: The Fast Options: a) Have the dealership drop in a brand-new long block from Nissan at my expense. They quoted me around $11-12K plus tax for that, including swapping over my current intake/header setup, baffled oil pan, etc. The upside is the block could be here quickly, the job can get done quickly and correctly (this is Jason @ Baker, I trust his work, and he can get the whole swap done in a day or two. He's dropped the engine out of my car before, and he's the only guy who's worked on it other than me, aside from the cage welding over at Lucas Racing). It seems like a lot of money just to get back roughly where I was before the incident but with a fresher engine. It's also the kind of money I don't have laying around to blow on this problem right now, although I could probably find ways to scrounge it up by making a few unwise financial decisions in other areas. b) Basically as above, but have them drop in a working used VQ37 block from parts search at salvage lots. The engine wouldn't be as fresh, it might only last another year for all I know. It would probably knock a bunch off the price above, but I'm not sure how much yet. They're calling around and looking into it now. The slower options, which might leave the car down for an indefinite period of time, during which I'd have to give up the track schedule or buy a really cheap backup track car, or maybe do a reduced schedule using some kind of rental cars. All of that adds cost and lost track time (or re-learning a new car setting me back a little) to the overall picture as well: a) Fix this engine. Tear it apart, figure out what's broken, buy parts and have a good engine guy rebuild it stronger (there are a couple around town that could do the job). Known-broken parts (crank, flywheel, etc) are going to run ~$2K for sure, plus whatever else is broken. I suspect there wasn't much secondary damage from bearing parts going all over the place - I think we had a catastrophic failure of that bearing (probably from crankshaft wobble/vibration from the failing flywheel) and immediate rev limit from the bad crank sensor input and not much else. It sounded almost healthy idling after the incident. May as well have the engine builder beef up the internals for the long haul while they're in there. Not even sure what the total cost would be, but it would probably be at least a month-long process (if not more!) when you count in parts delays, etc. Probably considerably cheaper than a new longblock from Nissan, and definitely more reliable than tossing in a random junkyard block. b) Screw the VQ. I'm not a Nissan purist, so dropping in an LS1+T56 is an option. I know I can get a cheap running engine. There's some fab work to do on engine/trans mounts and driveshaft, unless someone's made a kit already or is willing to use me as a test customer. I'd probably want to beef up the diff at the same time (which was an eventual plan anyways) to handle the torque. I'd probably run some random custom/race ECU for the LS, ditch the stock gauge cluster, etc. Given the car is completely gutted and staying that way, the re-wiring and all that isn't as hard as it would normally be. This option would take multiple months for sure, especially if I do most of it myself, which I'm somewhat inclined to do if I go down this road. I'd have to plan on not having a working 370 until sometime in 2015 and then see if maybe I can surprise myself and get it done a little earlier than that. With all the ancillary parts involved + fabrication, this is probably more expensive than a brand-new VQ37 longblock from Nissan, but I probably wouldn't feel it as bad spreading it out over several months, and the end result would be way cooler. Sell/Part-out the Z, sell off all the Z-specific things around here, use the proceeds to buy a cheap used track car that's already running and never look back. Probably the smart choice, but could take a while as well. I'd sell the racecar to someone who wants to do one of the options above or part it out. There's a ton of value in the aftermarket bits in this car: the JRZ coilovers, AP Racing brake kit, the rare AM Performance baffled oil pan, CJM's anti-fuel-starve kit, 4 sets of wheels, all the engine bolt-ons, swaybars, upper control arms, the Sparco seats + harnesses + steering wheel, etc, etc. There's also a fair amount of value in the package as a whole, even with the engine problem outstanding, just because all these parts are already installed and working well together, and the gutting and cage work is already done (and the cage is really top-notch). More than enough to cover a typical cheaper trackday car like a prepped 90's Miata or whatever I happen to find on the market at the time, so long as it's rear-wheel drive. I try to convince myself that I've had a good run at an interesting hobby here with the road-racing thing, but that keeping up with this in the long run at an aggressive level isn't something I'm financially equipped for. Maybe instead of throwing good money after bad, I could write off everything I've put in so far as a pretty fair deal for a pretty awesome experience over the past few years and some new driving skills I'll carry with me for the rest of my life, and just sell out. Maybe start another hobby less demanding of my time and money, like collecting enough gold bars to pave my entire front yard and then cleaning them every day. If I went option 4, I'd sell off the Z and/or parts as in option 3, then also sell the enclosed trailer + a bunch of tools I'll never use enough if I'm not doing this hobby anymore (including a low-rise lift), maybe even trade down the expensive diesel towtruck for something more reasonable. Eagle likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 05-27-2014 at 05:57 PM.

05-27-2014, 06:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rusty Ronin Samurai - Assassin Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Fayettenam,Pennsyltucky Age: 69 Posts: 35,351 Drives: 2011 Nismo GM 6M Rep Power: 2684438	I would do 2A. You already have a track car that you know well, and have top shelf parts in it. You'll end up with having a bullet proof VQ motor. Buying another track car. Who knows what you might get in to with it. It could be more $$$ then you think in the long run. Doing the GM motor swap. Sounds good when you talk about. But it will take time and $$$ to finish it. And you could lose your feeling for the sport while doing the swap. You will never get you money back out of it when selling your parts. And time you've put in to it also. Unless you want out of the sport all together. You and everone else that tracks a car should know that broken parts is part of the game. You always hope that it will never happen to you. But when it does. Be prepared to bit the bullet. __________________ 浪人 - 殺し屋 "The Difficult Anytime, The Impossible By Appointment Only" http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...o-journal.html

05-28-2014, 03:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	I don't think the failure is really 7AT-related, but I guess the answer to that question is a matter of opinion. Keep in mind nobody's opened up the engine or even the bellhousing yet, this is all based on an experienced, trustworthy 370Z mechanic's opinion that a main bearing is spun based on the sound, and that the flywheel is damaged by looking through the bellhousing access holes. I 99% trust he's right on both counts. Given the audio data from the datalogger late Saturday (where the engine was operating fine in terms of revs and performance, but there was a buzzing/grinding noise), I think the flywheel failed first, and then the imbalance/drag from that affected the crank and caused the eventual spun crank bearing within a couple sessions after the flywheel got bad. The flywheel is different on the 6MT and the 7AT, obviously (the 7AT has a "drive plate" that the torque convertor bolts to, it's a different part number than the 6MT flywheel). I've seen reports of cracked driveplates on 7AT's elsewhere (e.g. Megan's here: 7AT Owner , look at this ! ). The 7AT itself is supposedly still in good shape right now, but perhaps there's a weakness in the 7AT-specific driveplates under heavy loads at the track. Eagle likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-27-2014, 06:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
sig11 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Detroit Posts: 1,294 Drives: 09 370Z Red Sport-MT Rep Power: 18	Man that's a tough spot. If it were me I would probably go with option 3. It's far cheaper to buy a built car than to build one yourself and having a car you can write off without such a big loss is nice (I wrecked my 350Z race car this weekend and still managed to smile for a photo of it in the trees since I don't have nearly as much in it as my 370.). Option 4 might be the wisest but at least in my case I don't think I could give up racing. That Peter Egan quote - "Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" says it all.

05-28-2014, 02:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
VoBoy Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago/Houston Posts: 37 Drives: 06 350z Rep Power: 17	Forgive my ignorance, but was the failure due to the AT transmission? Do the same issues exist with the 6MT? I just haven't heard of many Z's with engine failures. I'm sure you could quickly source an engine and transmission. Nissan Unlimited usually has stock. (Near 290 and Beltway 8) So my vote is 1b. If it was my car I'd do that. You are a better man that me if you can walk away from this sport without some kinda rehab program. On the flip side, owning a miata is cheap you can probably sell off your Z stuff and use a fraction of it on a built miata.

05-28-2014, 03:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	BTW, Option 1b with a salvage block is in the ballpark of $7K installed (~$5K of that in parts). Better than ~$11-12K for the new block, but still a lot of cash, especially for an engine of unknown durability going forward. Next thing I want to look into is what an engine rebuild shop would charge to rebuild mine and make it stronger, and how long the process would take assuming no unexpected parts damage. sig11 likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-28-2014, 04:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	I think I might be able to find a cheaper salvage engine than they did. The plan that's starting to form here is throw a cheaper salvage engine in for right now, maybe get the cost down to ~$4-5K installed, and I could still make my June events (one of which is expensive and non-refundable). Then keep my old engine and work on tearing it down and rebuilding it slowly as a stronger replacement for down the road when the salvage one dies. sig11 likes this. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-28-2014, 04:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
VoBoy Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago/Houston Posts: 37 Drives: 06 350z Rep Power: 17	How about $700? 2007 Infiniti G37 Engine 2009 infinity g37 parts

05-28-2014, 05:05 PM	#14 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4211	Saw your car at Baker today hiding in the corner. I think you can find the engine plus parts for a lot less used, I think the salvaged engine plus re-building the current in spare time is the best option. __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

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