wstar's Journal

miguez · 04-23-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

There's prob some truth to your point that fewer AT folks are inclined to track their cars... and I agree the transmission itself isn't likely... and I also think this car runs hot regardless of transmission... but I think with the manual folks are spending more time at higher RPMs, which is a contributing factor... oil heats up with friction and I suspect friction increases non-linearly with RPMs... automatic transmissions should reduce time at higher RPMs vs manual b/c when it upshifts it does so with 99% precision... and I think realistically, most of us guys with manual transmissions are keeping on the gas at least a little between upshifts... and so for example even if we shift at 7,400 rpm, the car is running up to 7,800 rpm when the clutch is pressed... I suspect a lot of heat is building up between 7,500 and 8,000 rpm for the 6mts... Drivers can help by lifting the gas sooner, but I don't blame it all on us drivers, I think the engagement points in the clutch are too high in the pedal stroke... Based on my own experience and from watching videos of guys driving this car, I'm convinced it is happening a lot... until I find some AT guys overheating, I'm going to keep asking the question... sorry for the long-winded explanation!

That's a very good point Travis, probably some truth to that. Also, let's keep in mind the ambient temperature of the locations and days people are reporting engine oil temps, as during this time of the year there can be great temp variations between locations in the US.

wstar · 04-23-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

and so for example even if we shift at 7,400 rpm, the car is running up to 7,800 rpm when the clutch is pressed... I suspect a lot of heat is building up between 7,500 and 8,000 rpm for the 6mts...

Even if the driver lets the revs go up when hitting the clutch, shouldn't the rev limiter still stop you around 7.5? With a drive-by-wire throttle, it's not like the rev limiter could ever fail or be confused. Ultimately it's always in control.

miguez · 04-23-2009, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Even if the driver lets the revs go up when hitting the clutch, shouldn't the rev limiter still stop you around 7.5? With a drive-by-wire throttle, it's not like the rev limiter could ever fail or be confused. Ultimately it's always in control.

If I recall correctly, I have seen some dyno graphs showing up to 7,800 rpms being reached. I'm not exactly sure if that's accurate or not...?

travisjb · 04-23-2009, 11:27 PM

Wstar, I seem to remember getting over 7500 with the clutch in... my car's in the shop otherwise I'd go test my theory - I'm going off memory... even if the rev limiter were keeping the engine in check, there's no question in my mind that a mis-timed clutch is going to result in more time at the upper end of the rev range...

I'm going to stop harping on this point, because I know ppl will get tired of it... but someday I'm sure I'll be vindicated !

wstar · 04-24-2009, 01:29 AM

Throttle body coolant lines deleted this evening. DIY info and pics here: DIY: TB Coolant Delete

RCZ · 04-24-2009, 01:28 PM

You cant rev the car past 5XXXrpm in neutral. You guys ever notice this? Might be a built in limiter to protect the engine.

I went with the factory ester oil for my oil change. I wanted to see if the oil cooler does its job without worrying about whether the oil had something to do with it.

From what my tech said, nothing will happen if you switch to syn, the only problem is that the valvetrain will be a lot louder. You are going to get clicking...

travisjb · 04-24-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

You cant rev the car past 5XXXrpm in neutral. You guys ever notice this? Might be a built in limiter to protect the engine.

Did you verify that in your car or are you echoing the comment from the other thread ? If you verified, have you tried it when shifting from 1st to 2nd ?... ie I'd understand if you were just sitting there standstill with clutch pushed in it might limit to 5K... I'd guess that nissan did this to avoid having folks pop the clutch at 7k in 1st gear - would take a toll on the drivetrain and drive warranty costs... but something tells me that between upshifts the revs aren't limited in this way... still depending on someone else to verify - car in shop

wstar · 04-24-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

You cant rev the car past 5XXXrpm in neutral. You guys ever notice this? Might be a built in limiter to protect the engine.

Yeah I noticed this pretty early on. Clearly the car must be capable of being higher in neutral when driving though, or that would totally screw up some shifting scenarios. I haven't yet tried putting my 7AT in neutral at freeway speeds and seeing if the limit is still there. Those kinds of behaviors might be very different between 7AT and 6MT though.

RCZ · 04-24-2009, 01:37 PM

You must be able to rev it past that once you get moving, otherwise the synchrorev match wouldn't work at high rpm, nor would heal-and-toeing. You would just get locked out at 5k. I think I've almost misshifted trying to go into 6th but hitting the gate of 4th before and i think i remember seeing the revs go up pretty high while being out of gear.

semtex · 04-24-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

You cant rev the car past 5XXXrpm in neutral. You guys ever notice this? Might be a built in limiter to protect the engine.

You can if you press the clutch in. I found this out when I was making one of the initial sound clips for my exhaust. And I seem to recall that it limited the revs to 4500, not 5000, if I didn't press the clutch in.

Edit: I just remembered that in addition to pressing the clutch in, I had to slip it into 1st gear in order to rev past 5k (or 4.5k or whatever it was). So technically you are correct, RCZ. You can't rev past 5k in N.

wstar · 04-25-2009, 03:56 PM

I tested the "revving in neutral" thing on the freeway last night. In neutral rolling at highway speeds, 7AT will rev well past the 5k mark (I didn't try to hit the 7.5 limiter though). So the 5k limit on 7AT must be triggered by being in park, or being at low/zero speed, one of the two.

wstar · 04-25-2009, 04:05 PM

Also, today I removed my spare and subwoofer (radio actually sounds ok without it, to me), and removed the XM and Voice/Bluetooth modules. I left all the carpeting and plastic in afterwards. No pics, sorry

My car is Touring w/o Nav, which is "Bose without Navigation" in the Service Manual. The removed peices are 7, 8, and 9 on this diagram:

The stock head unit responded fine to the changes. The voice buttons on the steering wheel and the SAT button on the radio now just do nothing, there are no wierd errors or anything.

I can slightly feel that the backend got relatively lighter from this, but it's not too bad, since my bag of tools and emergency equipment (which I had behind the passenger seat before) was pretty hefty and made up for some of the lost weight.

The spot I removed those units from looks like a great place for either battery relocation or to install a Magden performance computer. Although on the other hand, mounting them further to the rear (sub/spare) area will help with weight distribution more.

miguez · 04-25-2009, 09:16 PM

So the compartment (or rectangular whole, from what I can tell from the images) that these units came out of is basically the size and depth of a common battery, huh?

Also, I was unaware of Magden performance computers, so i looked them up. the website looks nice, but not much info, and it seems a lot of features are Coming soon. I am interested in something of this sort, and was looking at Cypher. Do you have any experience with Magdens? Sounds like you need to provide your own screen, they seem to transmit in a variety of signal protocols, so you could just use a random flatscreen, but I am interested in how the information is presented.

Thanks,

wstar · 04-26-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miguez

So the compartment (or rectangular whole, from what I can tell from the images) that these units came out of is basically the size and depth of a common battery, huh?

It's not a comparment, it's more of a side-to-side channel through the car, just behind and below the big grey bar you see behind your seats. The Bose Amplifier is also mounted in this channel. Lots of stuff could be fit there, and if I get a Magden (or something similar) I may mount it there. A battery would fit fine too, but I really think I'll end up putting the battery further back just to help with balance.

Quote:

Also, I was unaware of Magden performance computers, so i looked them up. the website looks nice, but not much info, and it seems a lot of features are Coming soon. I am interested in something of this sort, and was looking at Cypher. Do you have any experience with Magdens? Sounds like you need to provide your own screen, they seem to transmit in a variety of signal protocols, so you could just use a random flatscreen, but I am interested in how the information is presented.

Thanks,

Are you talking about Cipher from UpRev? When they finally release their 370Z stuff, I'm planning to set up a laptop with Cipher+Osiris from them for tuning and detailed datalogging, BCM access, etc, etc. The Magden unit is more for use while driving, so I can keep a better eye on some of the ECU stats that we don't have (good) gauges for stock, and set limit alerts, etc. AFAIK the magden already works pretty well from what I've read on forums, etc. They're still releasing new software updates as they go though, to enable more features.

As for screens, Magden recommends and sells a 7" Lilliput touchscreen that works with their unit. For touch input, it needs to be USB (basically mouse/trackball/tablet emulation). What I'd really like to be able to figure out, is how to get a single touch screen with a decent GPS and the magden hooked up, both using the touch interface (switch between the two). Really, I could do that with the recommended Lilliput display and a VGA/USB switch, except I haven't found any decent headless GPS units that have USB touchscreen input... Someday I'll do some googling and get this sorted out.

travisjb · 04-26-2009, 02:14 AM

If you mount stuff against that beam, I'd suggest installing it on the aft side of the beam... braking always produces the most g's... that's how I installed my battery

04-24-2009, 01:29 AM	#35 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Throttle body coolant lines deleted this evening. DIY info and pics here: DIY: TB Coolant Delete __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-25-2009, 03:56 PM	#41 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	I tested the "revving in neutral" thing on the freeway last night. In neutral rolling at highway speeds, 7AT will rev well past the 5k mark (I didn't try to hit the 7.5 limiter though). So the 5k limit on 7AT must be triggered by being in park, or being at low/zero speed, one of the two. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-25-2009, 04:05 PM	#42 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Also, today I removed my spare and subwoofer (radio actually sounds ok without it, to me), and removed the XM and Voice/Bluetooth modules. I left all the carpeting and plastic in afterwards. No pics, sorry My car is Touring w/o Nav, which is "Bose without Navigation" in the Service Manual. The removed peices are 7, 8, and 9 on this diagram: The stock head unit responded fine to the changes. The voice buttons on the steering wheel and the SAT button on the radio now just do nothing, there are no wierd errors or anything. I can slightly feel that the backend got relatively lighter from this, but it's not too bad, since my bag of tools and emergency equipment (which I had behind the passenger seat before) was pretty hefty and made up for some of the lost weight. The spot I removed those units from looks like a great place for either battery relocation or to install a Magden performance computer. Although on the other hand, mounting them further to the rear (sub/spare) area will help with weight distribution more. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

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04-23-2009, 11:27 PM	#34 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 188	Wstar, I seem to remember getting over 7500 with the clutch in... my car's in the shop otherwise I'd go test my theory - I'm going off memory... even if the rev limiter were keeping the engine in check, there's no question in my mind that a mis-timed clutch is going to result in more time at the upper end of the rev range... I'm going to stop harping on this point, because I know ppl will get tired of it... but someday I'm sure I'll be vindicated !

04-24-2009, 01:28 PM	#36 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	You cant rev the car past 5XXXrpm in neutral. You guys ever notice this? Might be a built in limiter to protect the engine. I went with the factory ester oil for my oil change. I wanted to see if the oil cooler does its job without worrying about whether the oil had something to do with it. From what my tech said, nothing will happen if you switch to syn, the only problem is that the valvetrain will be a lot louder. You are going to get clicking...

04-24-2009, 01:37 PM	#39 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	You must be able to rev it past that once you get moving, otherwise the synchrorev match wouldn't work at high rpm, nor would heal-and-toeing. You would just get locked out at 5k. I think I've almost misshifted trying to go into 6th but hitting the gate of 4th before and i think i remember seeing the revs go up pretty high while being out of gear.

04-25-2009, 09:16 PM	#43 (permalink)
miguez Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 359 Drives: '04 Cavalier Rep Power: 181	So the compartment (or rectangular whole, from what I can tell from the images) that these units came out of is basically the size and depth of a common battery, huh? Also, I was unaware of Magden performance computers, so i looked them up. the website looks nice, but not much info, and it seems a lot of features are Coming soon. I am interested in something of this sort, and was looking at Cypher. Do you have any experience with Magdens? Sounds like you need to provide your own screen, they seem to transmit in a variety of signal protocols, so you could just use a random flatscreen, but I am interested in how the information is presented. Thanks,

04-26-2009, 02:14 AM	#45 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 188	If you mount stuff against that beam, I'd suggest installing it on the aft side of the beam... braking always produces the most g's... that's how I installed my battery