Anyone here into firearms?

Crash · 06-25-2009, 02:28 PM

I went shooting yesterday for the first time in a LONG time. I was shooting an AR15 and found my accuracy hasn't changed no matter how little I practice... My grouping kind of still sucks, but at least I know I'm freaking lethal from 100 yards.

I have 90% accuracy still.

Go me!!!

But I agree. Wrong forum.

LOL

tvfreakazoid · 06-25-2009, 02:41 PM

Was is built or did you buy it already put together? If built what brands do you have on it? Pics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

I went shooting yesterday for the first time in a LONG time. I was shooting an AR15 and found my accuracy hasn't changed no matter how little I practice... My grouping kind of still sucks, but at least I know I'm freaking lethal from 100 yards.

I have 90% accuracy still.

Go me!!!

But I agree. Wrong forum.

LOL

wstar · 06-25-2009, 03:31 PM

tv:

re twist rates and bullets:

Rifles are called rifles because the barrel has "rifling", which is a set of grooves (or something close to that) engraved in the inside of the barrel. These grooves twist, and their primary purpose is to impart a spin to the departing bullet to make it stable in flight. 1:7 is the ratio of the spin, and is the tightest spin generally available on a 5.56 cal AR-15. 1:9 is the common "compromise" twist rate, and you'll also see some 1:10 and even 1:12 guns. The tighter you make the twist rate, the heavier bullet your barrel can stabilize. The downside is that if the twist rate is too tight and you shoot very lightweight bullets, they could fly apart and fragment in the air from excess twist.

People who use an AR-15 to kill very small game (called "varmint" gun builds, because they're used to shoot small varmints like groundhogs and squirrels, etc) like to use very light bullets (40-55gr weight) at very high velocities, so for them a looser twist makes sense (1:10 or 1:12).

Standard issue US military ball ammo in 5.56 comes in 55gr (which will stabilize and be reliable in just about any twist rate) and 62gr (works fine in 1:7 and 1:9 barrels, but may not stabilize well in 1:10 or 1:12 barrels).

But according to modern ballistics research, the best performing rounds (on humans) in 5.56 tend to be the really heavy ones, like the 69gr, 75gr, 78gr, and yes even crazy 80gr rounds. 75gr Hornady TAP is very popular for a defensive round in the AR-15, for example. None of the heavier ones will stabilize in 1:9 reliably, only in 1:7. Some people have success with the 69 in a 1:9 barrel, but it's kindof a crapshoot depending on the barrel and bullet mfg.

Re the uppers you're looking at:

The POF upper you're describing is what's known as a piston-driven upper. Piston guns are a matter of a lot of contention and debate in the AR-15 community. The original design of the AR was to be gas-driven, whereas some other rifles like the AK-47 are piston driven.

Someone decided you could get the best of both worlds by modifying the AR design to be piston-driven too. Upsides are supposedly less recoil, and that the upper receiver and the bolt stay cleaner (less burnt stuff blowing on them all the time), but they still do require lubrication (don't let anyone tell you not to lube an AR just because it's a piston design, it still needs lube, the lube will just last longer). Downside is it's a relativelty recent and unproven serious design change to a good design that's proven itself well over the course of decades in the field. One of the biggest specific concerns is that the bolt is now driven back with an off-center force, which could cause galling of the upper receiver surface. Also has more small fragile parts than the original design, which may or may not fail early (not enough data).

LWRC also makes piston uppers, and are generally considered to be one of the highest quality piston uppers you can buy. If I were going piston, I'd shell out for LWRC instead of POF, but that's just me. Then again, a lot of people will tell you not to mess with a good thing, and just go with the original gas design, which is what you commonly find on all the major AR-15 variants (standard in Colt, Bushmaster, LMT, Knight's, Armalite, etc, etc).

tvfreakazoid · 06-26-2009, 02:22 PM

Thanks for the info. I was looking into a lwrc but they are really expensive. A few hundred more than the pof's. I'm still considering which to go with right now. I'm willing to spend a decent amount of money for a good quality gun that will last me for a while but i'm not sure if I want drop that kind of money. I do like the pof's but again the lwrc is really good to.
What is the deal with the rail system that pof and lwrc uses. I see some mid and full lengths. What are the big differences between the 2? Is the longer one, your able to put more things on the rail?
I have a friend that has a ar and he bought a cheap rail system and it was ugly because it was really big (fat). The rail system on the pof's and lwrc, do you know if they are slim?
Just to let you know the bushmaster is illegal in cali lol. I don't know why but that's what they tell me.
What brands do you like for lower rec? i was looking into getting a spikes tactical and kaiser defence spikes tactical lower receiver
Here's a pic of a 14.5" pof upper POF upper rec. More pof upper rec Other POF upper rec
Do you prefer a 16" or a 14.5"?[QUOTE=wstar;99332]tv:

wstar · 06-26-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

Thanks for the info. I was looking into a lwrc but they are really expensive. A few hundred more than the pof's. I'm still considering which to go with right now. I'm willing to spend a decent amount of money for a good quality gun that will last me for a while but i'm not sure if I want drop that kind of money. I do like the pof's but again the lwrc is really good to.

If you really want to go piston, and you can afford it, LWRC is a great option. Keep in mind that, last I checked some months ago, they had a pretty long backlog on their orders too, though. You can also skip the piston thing and get a high quality conventional AR from the likes of Bushmaster, LMT, Colt, or (my current favorite) Noveske for less money than an LWRC piston gun.

Quote:

What is the deal with the rail system that pof and lwrc uses. I see some mid and full lengths. What are the big differences between the 2? Is the longer one, your able to put more things on the rail?
I have a friend that has a ar and he bought a cheap rail system and it was ugly because it was really big (fat). The rail system on the pof's and lwrc, do you know if they are slim?

Most railed forearm systems are going to be roughly the same diameter, within reason. Usually the length of the rail is chosen based on the length of the gas system (as in, how many inches down the barrel the gas port is driled, which flows hot gasses back to the receiver to move the action (or in the case of a piston gun, the hot gasses drive a piston rod)), which in turn is usually at least somewhat proportional to the length of the barrel. 16" barrels are pretty standards on ARs. If you want a long-range tack-driver you could go 20", but then again the 5.56 doesn't have great terminal ballistics at long range anyways, you may as well buy a 7.62x51 gun in that case, like the AR-10, or just a bolt-action gun in .308 or 30-06.

Going shorter than 16" barrel length involves a bunch of legal hassle with filing NFA tax papers with the Feds, as it's considered a Short Barreled Rifle, which is federally regulated. You may not even be able to own such things in California, I donno.

Quote:

Just to let you know the bushmaster is illegal in cali lol. I don't know why but that's what they tell me.

Specific brands aren't illegal in Cali as far as I know, but you guys do have different rules than the rest of the country on making any AR-15 legal in general. IIRC one of the biggest PITA ones is that you have to have a fixed magazine of some sort. I'm really not up on Cali's assault rifle "ban" laws, but the AR-15.com howtown forum for California can probably help there.

Quote:

What brands do you like for lower rec? i was looking into getting a spikes tactical and kaiser defence spikes tactical lower receiver

Most of the lowers are pretty similar, I've never seen any big difference between the manufacturers of quality forged lowers. Just make sure it's forged (the way it's built, most good ones are) are you're good to go on the lower. You may have to buy a California-specific lower receiver btw, to comply with the laws there. Again, I'm really not up on the Cali legal issues, you'll have to look into that yourself.

tvfreakazoid · 06-27-2009, 04:44 AM

Thanks for all the info and taking your time to answer my questions really appreciate it.
I also wanted to know how much can you shoot out of these type of rifles before you have to change the barrel? I assume it depends on the quality, but when do you know its time for a new barrel?

So, the Noveske is not a piston firing system, it's just a regular high end ar. They are pretty pricey but i'm sure a good quality rifle.

I do want your opionion if you had to choose which upper rec to get for the noveske Noveske upper rec

And a pof upper rec POF upper rec

tvfreakazoid · 09-03-2009, 04:41 AM

how about 1:8 twist? I've seen this on some ar 15. My pof has a 1:8 twist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

tv:

re twist rates and bullets:

Rifles are called rifles because the barrel has "rifling", which is a set of grooves (or something close to that) engraved in the inside of the barrel. These grooves twist, and their primary purpose is to impart a spin to the departing bullet to make it stable in flight. 1:7 is the ratio of the spin, and is the tightest spin generally available on a 5.56 cal AR-15. 1:9 is the common "compromise" twist rate, and you'll also see some 1:10 and even 1:12 guns. The tighter you make the twist rate, the heavier bullet your barrel can stabilize. The downside is that if the twist rate is too tight and you shoot very lightweight bullets, they could fly apart and fragment in the air from excess twist.

People who use an AR-15 to kill very small game (called "varmint" gun builds, because they're used to shoot small varmints like groundhogs and squirrels, etc) like to use very light bullets (40-55gr weight) at very high velocities, so for them a looser twist makes sense (1:10 or 1:12).

Standard issue US military ball ammo in 5.56 comes in 55gr (which will stabilize and be reliable in just about any twist rate) and 62gr (works fine in 1:7 and 1:9 barrels, but may not stabilize well in 1:10 or 1:12 barrels).

But according to modern ballistics research, the best performing rounds (on humans) in 5.56 tend to be the really heavy ones, like the 69gr, 75gr, 78gr, and yes even crazy 80gr rounds. 75gr Hornady TAP is very popular for a defensive round in the AR-15, for example. None of the heavier ones will stabilize in 1:9 reliably, only in 1:7. Some people have success with the 69 in a 1:9 barrel, but it's kindof a crapshoot depending on the barrel and bullet mfg.

Re the uppers you're looking at:

The POF upper you're describing is what's known as a piston-driven upper. Piston guns are a matter of a lot of contention and debate in the AR-15 community. The original design of the AR was to be gas-driven, whereas some other rifles like the AK-47 are piston driven.

Someone decided you could get the best of both worlds by modifying the AR design to be piston-driven too. Upsides are supposedly less recoil, and that the upper receiver and the bolt stay cleaner (less burnt stuff blowing on them all the time), but they still do require lubrication (don't let anyone tell you not to lube an AR just because it's a piston design, it still needs lube, the lube will just last longer). Downside is it's a relativelty recent and unproven serious design change to a good design that's proven itself well over the course of decades in the field. One of the biggest specific concerns is that the bolt is now driven back with an off-center force, which could cause galling of the upper receiver surface. Also has more small fragile parts than the original design, which may or may not fail early (not enough data).

LWRC also makes piston uppers, and are generally considered to be one of the highest quality piston uppers you can buy. If I were going piston, I'd shell out for LWRC instead of POF, but that's just me. Then again, a lot of people will tell you not to mess with a good thing, and just go with the original gas design, which is what you commonly find on all the major AR-15 variants (standard in Colt, Bushmaster, LMT, Knight's, Armalite, etc, etc).

wstar · 09-03-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

how about 1:8 twist? I've seen this on some ar 15. My pof has a 1:8 twist.

I donno, I've never read up much on people's experiences with 1:8. I would assume it's fine for at least 69gr ammo, and probably 75gr. Not so sure about the super-heavies like 78's and 80's though. 1:7 is kinda the official standard for short barrels and heavy bullets though, and it's what you get on real M4's. Slower twists are compromises to be sure you don't spin-fragment light bullets, but 55gr ammo works fine in 1:7, and there's really no use for shooting anything lighter than that unless you're actually doing the varmint-hunting thing (as in, using an AR to kill groundhogs and the like).

ZKindaGuy · 09-10-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I donno, I've never read up much on people's experiences with 1:8. I would assume it's fine for at least 69gr ammo, and probably 75gr. Not so sure about the super-heavies like 78's and 80's though.

1:8 twist is what my Les Baer AR-15 is. The best bullet weight for 1:8 twist is between 60 and 77 grains. It can perform well with light bullets down to 55grains as long as the jacket isn't too thin.

tvfreakazoid · 09-10-2009, 03:50 PM

Good to know. I have a pof upper that is a 1:8 twist.
I have 1k rounds of centurion ammo (55g) and i'm looking to buy some different range of bullet weight to test out my upper. But it's so expensive. I'm going to try to get some 60's to 77's weight ammo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

1:8 twist is what my Les Baer AR-15 is. The best bullet weight for 1:8 twist is between 60 and 77 grains. It can perform well with light bullets down to 55grains as long as the jacket isn't too thin.

tvfreakazoid · 05-23-2010, 12:07 AM

I ended up getting the POF. I think the lwrci is a good brand. But they are way over priced. Personal opinion. I think one of the reason they are more expensive is because they have a good reputation for customer service and they been on a few magazine reviews and couple of tv shows that talked about the lwrci brand. I think because of the TV reviews and magazine reviews they drove their prices up.

POF does have good quality makes and finishes on their products. I think the barrel on the POF is a little better in quality compared to the lwrci or other brands in general. But POF has some really bad customer service issues. At least that's what i've read about.

Pushing_Tin · 05-23-2010, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

I ended up getting the POF. I think the lwrci is a good brand. But they are way over priced. Personal opinion. I think one of the reason they are more expensive is because they have a good reputation for customer service and they been on a few magazine reviews and couple of tv shows that talked about the lwrci brand. I think because of the TV reviews and magazine reviews they drove their prices up.

POF does have good quality makes and finishes on their products. I think the barrel on the POF is a little better in quality compared to the lwrci or other brands in general. But POF has some really bad customer service issues. At least that's what i've read about.

Good information, but why build one when you can buy one that's complete? Is it fun, cooler, challenge..??!

Crash · 06-25-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvfreakazoid

Was is built or did you buy it already put together? If built what brands do you have on it? Pics?

It was built. It's not mine. I prefer not to own a gun, just know how to use 'em. I'm moving to the beach in a couple weeks, so I may buy a 1911. But aside from that, there's no need to have an assault rifle. A good hand gun is all you really need for house-hold protection. MAYBE a shotgun.

AARC51 · 06-26-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

A good hand gun is all you really need for house-hold protection. MAYBE a shotgun.

12 rounds of semi-auto shotgun goodness will DEFINITELY get the job done.

robin · 08-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

It was built. It's not mine. I prefer not to own a gun, just know how to use 'em. I'm moving to the beach in a couple weeks, so I may buy a 1911. But aside from that, there's no need to have an assault rifle. A good hand gun is all you really need for house-hold protection. MAYBE a shotgun.

great! i am beginning to be convinced to buy one for protection..

06-25-2009, 02:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 590	I went shooting yesterday for the first time in a LONG time. I was shooting an AR15 and found my accuracy hasn't changed no matter how little I practice... My grouping kind of still sucks, but at least I know I'm freaking lethal from 100 yards. I have 90% accuracy still. Go me!!! But I agree. Wrong forum. LOL __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-25-2009, 03:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	tv: re twist rates and bullets: Rifles are called rifles because the barrel has "rifling", which is a set of grooves (or something close to that) engraved in the inside of the barrel. These grooves twist, and their primary purpose is to impart a spin to the departing bullet to make it stable in flight. 1:7 is the ratio of the spin, and is the tightest spin generally available on a 5.56 cal AR-15. 1:9 is the common "compromise" twist rate, and you'll also see some 1:10 and even 1:12 guns. The tighter you make the twist rate, the heavier bullet your barrel can stabilize. The downside is that if the twist rate is too tight and you shoot very lightweight bullets, they could fly apart and fragment in the air from excess twist. People who use an AR-15 to kill very small game (called "varmint" gun builds, because they're used to shoot small varmints like groundhogs and squirrels, etc) like to use very light bullets (40-55gr weight) at very high velocities, so for them a looser twist makes sense (1:10 or 1:12). Standard issue US military ball ammo in 5.56 comes in 55gr (which will stabilize and be reliable in just about any twist rate) and 62gr (works fine in 1:7 and 1:9 barrels, but may not stabilize well in 1:10 or 1:12 barrels). But according to modern ballistics research, the best performing rounds (on humans) in 5.56 tend to be the really heavy ones, like the 69gr, 75gr, 78gr, and yes even crazy 80gr rounds. 75gr Hornady TAP is very popular for a defensive round in the AR-15, for example. None of the heavier ones will stabilize in 1:9 reliably, only in 1:7. Some people have success with the 69 in a 1:9 barrel, but it's kindof a crapshoot depending on the barrel and bullet mfg. Re the uppers you're looking at: The POF upper you're describing is what's known as a piston-driven upper. Piston guns are a matter of a lot of contention and debate in the AR-15 community. The original design of the AR was to be gas-driven, whereas some other rifles like the AK-47 are piston driven. Someone decided you could get the best of both worlds by modifying the AR design to be piston-driven too. Upsides are supposedly less recoil, and that the upper receiver and the bolt stay cleaner (less burnt stuff blowing on them all the time), but they still do require lubrication (don't let anyone tell you not to lube an AR just because it's a piston design, it still needs lube, the lube will just last longer). Downside is it's a relativelty recent and unproven serious design change to a good design that's proven itself well over the course of decades in the field. One of the biggest specific concerns is that the bolt is now driven back with an off-center force, which could cause galling of the upper receiver surface. Also has more small fragile parts than the original design, which may or may not fail early (not enough data). LWRC also makes piston uppers, and are generally considered to be one of the highest quality piston uppers you can buy. If I were going piston, I'd shell out for LWRC instead of POF, but that's just me. Then again, a lot of people will tell you not to mess with a good thing, and just go with the original gas design, which is what you commonly find on all the major AR-15 variants (standard in Colt, Bushmaster, LMT, Knight's, Armalite, etc, etc). __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-26-2009, 02:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
tvfreakazoid A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: kommie kali Posts: 1,238 Drives: 2015 Audi S5; 6spd. Rep Power: 10325	Thanks for the info. I was looking into a lwrc but they are really expensive. A few hundred more than the pof's. I'm still considering which to go with right now. I'm willing to spend a decent amount of money for a good quality gun that will last me for a while but i'm not sure if I want drop that kind of money. I do like the pof's but again the lwrc is really good to. What is the deal with the rail system that pof and lwrc uses. I see some mid and full lengths. What are the big differences between the 2? Is the longer one, your able to put more things on the rail? I have a friend that has a ar and he bought a cheap rail system and it was ugly because it was really big (fat). The rail system on the pof's and lwrc, do you know if they are slim? Just to let you know the bushmaster is illegal in cali lol. I don't know why but that's what they tell me. What brands do you like for lower rec? i was looking into getting a spikes tactical and kaiser defence spikes tactical lower receiver Here's a pic of a 14.5" pof upper POF upper rec. More pof upper rec Other POF upper rec Do you prefer a 16" or a 14.5"?[QUOTE=wstar;99332]tv: __________________ Mudders milk Last edited by tvfreakazoid; 06-26-2009 at 02:43 PM.

06-27-2009, 04:44 AM	#6 (permalink)
tvfreakazoid A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: kommie kali Posts: 1,238 Drives: 2015 Audi S5; 6spd. Rep Power: 10325	Thanks for all the info and taking your time to answer my questions really appreciate it. I also wanted to know how much can you shoot out of these type of rifles before you have to change the barrel? I assume it depends on the quality, but when do you know its time for a new barrel? So, the Noveske is not a piston firing system, it's just a regular high end ar. They are pretty pricey but i'm sure a good quality rifle. I do want your opionion if you had to choose which upper rec to get for the noveske Noveske upper rec And a pof upper rec POF upper rec __________________ Mudders milk Last edited by tvfreakazoid; 06-27-2009 at 04:52 AM.

05-23-2010, 12:07 AM	#11 (permalink)
tvfreakazoid A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: kommie kali Posts: 1,238 Drives: 2015 Audi S5; 6spd. Rep Power: 10325	I ended up getting the POF. I think the lwrci is a good brand. But they are way over priced. Personal opinion. I think one of the reason they are more expensive is because they have a good reputation for customer service and they been on a few magazine reviews and couple of tv shows that talked about the lwrci brand. I think because of the TV reviews and magazine reviews they drove their prices up. POF does have good quality makes and finishes on their products. I think the barrel on the POF is a little better in quality compared to the lwrci or other brands in general. But POF has some really bad customer service issues. At least that's what i've read about. __________________ Mudders milk

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