Anyone here into firearms?

MacCool

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Chuck33079

So you've personally had issues, or did you read about it online?

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MacCool

I think that one's history with a specific gun is far more important than the reputation of the brand. If you read the internet gun forums, you'd assume that Glock must make a completely reliable firearm. My Glock 19 had serious ejection problems. It was not reliable (happens to be a recurring theme with Glock these days, but that's another issue). The converse is also true. The brand itself can have issues, but if your gun works well, that's the important thing.

Most of the guys that I know, these days now that people carry firearms more than they used to and given the number of cops that I hang around with and shoot with, will usually never carry a gun of any brand for self defense unless they have a few hundred rounds through that specific gun so that its reliability can be determined. Man, it never used to be that way. Used to be...you bought a Sig, or a S&W, or a Beretta and you could just bet your life that it was going to be reliable enough to trust your life with. Now...not so much.

MacCool

Anyone here into firearms?

An individual person's experience with an individual firearm brand pretty much means nothing. One-off anecdotes, good or bad, tell nothing.

I've personally seen several of those consumer-grade, lower-tier rifles like RRA break at carbine courses over the years, so yes, I've seen the problems. They are legendary.
Some trainers won't even allow some brands in their courses because when they fail they often divert class attention or utilize instructor resources that would otherwise be spent on the other paying customers. In addition, I train with cops regularly and have friends who are firearms trainers and armorers, and one of my closest shooting buddies owns an indoor range and pro shop. And my LGS is also a close friend. They see the issues, they're common, and tend to follow a theme (RRA has recurring issue with chambers being too tight and with being overgassed, for example). Over the last 10 years, I shoot at 2, maybe 3 carbine courses with nationally-known trainers a year. I was part of the local SWAT team for over 15 years and we shot twice a month, I've been shooting regularly with the Sheriff's Department for almost 20 years. I don't train as hard as I used to now that I'm no longer on the SWAT team, but still shoot regularly as part of Bomb Squad training. When you shoot 2000 rounds in a weekend with a bunch of other guys using a variety of rifle brands, well, if a given brand has weak spots they're going to be most likely to show up when the gun is pushed hard. Average AR15 owner might shoot 500 rounds a year. Most guns, even RRA, can hack that without recurring failures.

synolimit

Interesting. Well for glock since 04 my duty weapon had thousands and thousands of rounds without one single issue. I shoot better with it too! I just love my sig.

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Chuck33079

So when consumer grade arms are pushed in LEO/MIL environments and training, they fail more than arms designed and built for LEO/MIL use? Huh. At some point, aren't we using the wrong tool for the job? My RRA has never had one issue, nor have any of the others I've built from their parts for others. They see 2500-5000 rounds a year. Of course, if I was going to shoot that in a weekend I'd expect parts failures and plan accordingly. My Sig has never had one issue. I've got a collection of Glocks that, other than the occasional errant bit of brass, have never had any issues that I couldn't directly trace back to my reloads.

And lets be honest. SWAT gets plenty of practice, but are we really using the rest of the police as an example of a group of people who know their weapons and shoot worth a damn? Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods, but here it's pretty dismal. One of the guys at our local Bullseye matches is the local PD armorer, and the stories we hear would turn your hair white.

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MacCool

Absolutley! Agency firearms choices are generally made by bean counters, not shooting cops. They pick their issued patrol weapons based on price, not on performance and usually don't allow individually-owned rifles even though most armorers would prefer it. Here, DPMS headquarters is located about 90 miles away, so finding those rifles issued as patrol weapons is common in all the various police agencies around here. It's a nightmare for most of them because of the lack of reliability and the effort that department armorers have to expend to keep them running even for the twice-a-year qualifications they have to go through. You're right, your average cops are usually not gun guys. They often can't shoot well and usually know little about guns. The frustrations that I see, however, aren't from the street cops who are issued the weapon, it's from the department armorers. You're also correct in that SWAT (TAC Team here) uses different weapons. Lots of AR15's but they're usually higher quality SBRs, mainly Colt and BCM, with a smattering of select fire ARs as well as some subguns (mainly UMPs, but we did just get in a Kriss Vector on trial. Holy crap that's an amazing firearm!). The difference between a Colt or a BCM and the usual run of issued patrol rifles from a bean-counter purchase is readily apparent and an ongoing source of both frustration and jokes. Those agency administrators...they don't have to shoot the things and the armorer staff...they're already on the payroll. Their daily frustrations don't matter since they're not really costing the department any extra.

Chuck33079

Also, how many of the LEO firearm issues are cleanliness/lubrication related? Everything you just typed was pretty much verbatim from my shooting buddy as well. All he added was "and cops don't clean their guns for ****." He actually brought out the slide and barrel from a Glock where the owner, a long-time LEO, proceeded to load a 9mm into his .40, chamber a round which obviously didn't fire, rack the slide to the .40 that was loaded next in the mag and pulled the trigger to predictible results.

He firmly believes that most cops would be far better served if they were all just issued S&W .357 revolvers.

Also, please do a more in-depth review of the Kriss. That thing gives me wood.

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Limeybastard

I bought an SP2022 9mm a year ago, all I can say its very underated. French cops cant be wrong to use this as their side arm!

Also, have a P226 made in W Germany dated 1989. These are the only two Sigs that I have in my stash.

Chuck33079

Do French cops actually use their sidearms, or just drop them and put their hands up?

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MacCool

The Kriss is a hoot for sure. EXTREMELY fast. Handles very well. Recoil is low and the thing is very manageable in sustained fire, although I do have a tendency to pull it to the right, at least so far. Maybe I'll improve if I shoot it more, but my ability to shoot the thing isn't going to be a departmental priority.

Re: maintenance...yeah, it's an issue. Mainly lack of lube and RDS maintaining a consistent zero. These things get carried around and racked a lot, generally banged up, but not necessarily shot all that much, and when they are then everyone cleans 'em up before going home. Theoretically.

Chuck33079

Would it be entertaining in any way if it was a neutered civvy version, or would it become pointless?

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MacCool

My P229 I bought in 96 or 97. The frame is made in Germany, the SS slide was made in the US. It's a great handgun. Accurate and reliable with a very good trigger. In all the years I've had it I've never had a broken part. I've replaced recoil springs once or twice. My issue with it is my current trend toward moving away from DA/SA firearms as well as moving away from .40 cal.

MacCool

Oh yeah. I'd consider buying a semi auto version, although I'd want it to be an SBR, and I'm not particularly interested in adding .45 to my list of ammo purchases. IMHO, the thing is probably more useful in its two-shot mode. When I first shot it that way, I thought I had the selector wrong and it was still in semi. Then I noticed I was getting two casings hitting the floor for each trigger pull. Each two-shot burst was indistinguishable from one shot. It was amazing. In full auto, it empties a 30 shot magazine in no time at 1200 rounds/minute.

Chuck33079

Sweet. Most of my reloading is .45 anyway, so it wouldn't be any big deal to make some hotter rounds to run a carbine/smg. It's on my firearms bucket list. I'm just going to need a bigger safe.

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