Anyone here into firearms?

BlackZeda

I would love to get some input from my Z-brothers regarding an AR build.

Currently I have a mid-length rifle which works perfectly, but due to my mentality (minor OCD? having German heritage? being a Virgo?) it bugs me that the lower (YHM) and upper (CMMG) don't match. The solution seems simple...just get a YHM upper, but those haven't been available for over a year and I can't find one at the numerous gun shows that I have attended. Also, I am not happy with the CMMG at all. It seems to scrap material off the BCM Gunfighter CH which doesn't seem to be an issue with my Bushmaster uppers.

So I am looking to get a high-quality matched upper and lower set, which will be my last 5.56 AR rifle. I am highly motivated to buy a Noveske matched upper and lower receiver set from Rainier Arms, but I have been waiting weeks for one to become available:

Rainier Arms, LLC™ | Browse | Receivers - Lowers | Noveske Upper/Lower Matched Set

While waiting and browsing on their site I have come across a Mega Arms billet matched upper and lower receiver set:

Rainier Arms, LLC™ | Browse | Receivers - Lowers | Mega Billet Upper / Lower / CH - Combo

After reading up on the Mega Arms receiver marketing literature and reviews it sounds like it is on par with Noveske, plus it definitely has a cool, unique look. Plus it is at least $100 more expensive and made of a higher grade of aluminium.

So, should I go for the Mega Arms over the Noveske? Or am I being seduced by marketing hype? Do you see any drawbacks with that design?

Thanks in advance for your responses!

BTW, any suggestions for the lower and upper receiver parts would be appreciated as well. I am about to order a Geisselle trigger in order to make this an ultimate AR.

MacCool

Noveske uppers and lowers are 7075-T6 aluminum, same as the Mega. The difference is that like most ARs, the Noveske is machined from a forging whereas the Mega is machined from a billet. The lack of stress relieving in the billet machining process arguably results in a weaker end product, and as a result one often finds that the billet products end up being thicker/heavier than their forged counterparts with reinforcements in key areas. If not done well, you can get cracking in some of those areas. Bottom line, no real advantage and mostly marketing hype. Another downside of billet is that some parts may not work with a billet lower (BAD lever, some of the lower parts, Redi-Mags, etc.) Not saying Mega is bad, it's just not superior in any way, other than the fact that it's more readily available.

I have a VIS upper on my Noveske Light Recce. It's nice, but it is heavy. I also have a couple of rifles I built from Noveske matched uppers/lowers. I have yet to be able to ascertain, no matter how much I try to fool myself, that the rigidity of the VIS gives me any kind of advantage over the other two rifles.

Giessele triggers are excellent. They're all I use (all SSA's) and I've never had reason to regret that. I never buy lower parts kits. The quality is too variable. If you are considering a Giessele FCG, and a BAD safety selector, and some kind of grip other than standard, check out G&R Tactical. Grant has mix-and-match LPK's wherein he selects higher quality. Personally, I buy the FCG, grip, safety selector all separately. I then go to Brownells and buy a Colt bolt release and mag release (had too many off-the-shelf LPK's come with crappy parts like that), then all the other springs and detents separately.

BlackZeda

You definitely have confirmed some of my suspicions/instincts and helped me resist the hype...thanks! Just from experience with mountain bike parts and golf clubs I will always choose a forged part over something that has just been cast and cut out. With mountain bike parts the later will just fail, and with golf clubs you really get no feeling (and I have broken a few cast golf club heads). I tried many, many clubs last year and have come to the conclusion that I will probably never give up my Mizunos which are forged.

I think I will just be patient and wait for the Noveske matched upper and lower set, especially since you have informed me that they are made with 7075-T6 aluminum...thanks! I did notice that the lower weighted .2 ounces more, so it seems they need to add more material.

After trying the Troy Industries TRX Battlerail Extreme and VTAC TRX Extreme forearms I think I am hooked. They are both very light and they make the AR feel very sleek and small instead of the bulkiness I experience with a quad-rail forearm. The extra material seems to be a waste for rails that go unused. My ARs feel almost like mini-FN FALs...pretty cool. I might consider a VIS upper when building my 7.62 AR here in the near future.

Thanks for the insight on the receiver parts as well. I will not be lazy and go ahead and buy them individually instead of a kit and still go with Geisselle triggers.

Thanks again McCool! I will post when I get my receivers swapped out with the Noveskes.

MacCool

I'm no metallurgist, but the problem as I understand it is that the billets used are part of an extrusion. As such, the grain is completely uniform. The items machined from billet therefore have the grain always running in the same direction. This is problematic in that it means that in many areas the stresses imposed run across the grain, meaning weaker. They compensate for this by making the items thicker (heavier), but that is apparently tricky to do (knowing where the stress risers are going to be) and if it's not done perfectly, you get stress cracks fairly often. If it is done properly, you are left with a rigid but heavier item. With forgings, the metal is literally hammered into shape around the curves and bends in stress areas, meaning the stresses run with the grain, meaning stronger.

Before I'd pay extra for a billet lower or upper and suffer the extra weight, somebody would have to prove to me that a more rigid shooting platform will translate into me getting more shots into an 8 inch circle from 50 yards, and that I won't get cracking of the part after another 4000-5000 rounds. I made that assumption years ago, but current wisdom recommends against, and indeed, I haven't seen that at all shooting my Noveske with VIS compared to my SBRs with conventional Noveske uppers/lowers.

Hype IMHO.

Relative to the LPK, it's kind of cumbersome to buy the individual parts, but IMHO works better. Plus, I usually order 3-5 of each spring and detent just to have them on hand. Here's a representation:

BlackZeda

The thing I was impressed with the Mega Arms billet receivers were that they were made with 7075 T6 aluminium. Since you brought to my attention that Noveske are forged from the same metal it is a moot point. My thinking was that, yes it billet, but it is a stronger material, so there shouldn't be any problems.

With golf clubs and mountain bike components you can actually feel that forged is stronger, so I think I will stick with Noveske.

As far as the lower parts kit, since this is my AR-supreme, I think I will hand-pick each part rather than get a kit. It is a labor of love after all!

I noticed that Rainer Arms now have Noveske lowers and uppers available seperately. Do you think having a matched set is worth the wait? I would think that since it is Noveske, that a seperate upper and lower would fit so well I wouldn't know the difference. Plus the upper has all the parts included with it.

MacCool

The only advantage to a matched upper and lower is that they are hand fitted, so they mate up perfectly without any play. The disadvantage is that it does impair interchangability. Of my three matched Noveske sets, none of the uppers fit easily on any of the other lowers. A little play between upper and lower has absolutely no bearing on how the rifle shoots or its durability...it's purely cosmetic. Now, I like a nice, tight rifle, but I'm not sure the hand fitting is worth the downside, especially given the price premium and lack of availability. If I were going to build a rifle right now, I'd use a Noveske upper and lower, but I wouldn't make any special effort to have them be matched to each other.


The Colt bolt release and mag releases are more expensive, but I've never had one that didn't work, whereas I have had generic LPK's where the bolt release was a piece of crap, and the mag release was out of spec enough that it wouldn't engage the catch in the mag. My only other observation is that I highly recommend a BADASS. It's a superb selector, very precise, not to mention that it's ambidexterous. That's important to me because in my personal manual of arms, I generally flip the safety off with my thumb and flip it back on from the other side with my index finger. Not to mention their various interchangeable lever configurations and their 45 degree lever. I've not used the latter, but it's the way I'd go for my next one. B.A.D as a company is a class act with truly exceptional customer service. If I had to choose between having a Gunfighter charging handle vs a BADASS, I'd go for the BADASS every time. Both of those devices represent real improvements in rifle construction. By the way, note that on their website, you can buy the BADASS in combination with a Giessele trigger. The Giessele trigger is superb in all respects, IMHO.

http://shop.battlearmsdevelopment.com/main.sc




I particularly like the crank lever option, with a shorter, out-of-the-way lever on the index finger side. Very positive control. Nice and solid. The safety selector is the control that is by far used to most on any rifle (except the trigger), so IMHO you want it to be precise and distinct (likewise the trigger). I came to hate the mushy selectors that come in a typical LPK, especially given the variability in quality. Likewise I prefer the nice crisp break on a Giessele...no creep or grittiness.




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BlackZeda

Hmmm, you gave me a thought to check out the play in my rifles, which I haven't given it a lot of thought before. The Bushies have only enough play to make a slight noise when I torque the upper and lower, with one being almost not noticable (I assume that is the one I bought as a complete rifle). Even the CMMG upper with the YHM lower isn't at all noticable unless I really mess with it. I remember I put an Accu-Wedge in a Colt and Armalite I used to own, but it just made it really hard to disassemble, so I guess I never was compelled to try that again. That proves your point since I have put many, many rounds through the Bushmaster that I pieced together and haven't had even a stovepipe jam. I do use supposedly good ammo though, so I am sure that has something to do with it. You are the right guy to ask since you have the exact experience that will help me with this decision. I am going to order them right now!

Of course you showing me all this nice hardware will result in me buy each times three! Would you say that the Noveske barrels are worth the premium price? I bought a Daniels Defense barrel which I thought was pretty nifty and expensive, but the Noveske barrel is twice the price.

Thanks again for the insight and info!

MacCool

If I wanted a barrel for nuts-on accuracy, I'd get a Noveske stainless in 16-18 inches. I do believe they are among the best. As it is, I don't need that kind of accuracy and prefer carbon steel for it's longevity and durability. In that regard, the Noveske steel barrels are excellent, but not available separately. I have no complaints about the BCM barrels I have. I think DD makes a fine barrel. But...my next barrel will likely be a Centurion. They use the same M249 thicker chrome lining that Noveske uses, but they're available separately. If it's a spare-no-expense rifle...I'd get the Centurion double-chrome barrel unless you want stainless, in which case I'd go Noveske. If you're looking to compromise a little for a lower price, hammer-forged DD or BCM barrels are really good and probably represent more-bang for buck.

frost

Va. Senate panel votes to scrap one-gun-a-month rule | Richmond Times-Dispatch

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BlackZeda

Isn't this a steel barrel that you are describing?:

Rainier Arms, LLC™ | Browse | Noveske | Noveske N4 Light 5.56MM Barrel - 16 LP

$450.45...you would think it was made of a platinum and titanium-lined.

MacCool

Whoops, yes it ïs. Sorry for not paying attention. As I mentioned, I'd get a Noveske stainless, but in the hammer forged line I'd be inclined to get something fom this page.

Hammer Forged Barrel

BlackZeda

The Centurion Arms barrels are definitely more reasonable for sure. I will definitely consider those the next time I get a barrel. It looks like the stainless steel Noveske barrels use polygonal rifling whereas the Noveske CHF don't...still the same price though :S

I just ordered a Noveske lower and upper from Rainier Arms...need to do the FFL thing tomorrow. Now I need to order the parts for the lower...

Nismo89

this is my baby right here...

ACR =)
Remington Defense

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tvfreakazoid

Or the SCAR!

But i think both are over priced.

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