Anyone here into firearms?

Rooster89 · 09-05-2012, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

personal preference. You can tac out your AR all you want but then some dude with a stock 6920 will come and own you.

honestly, i think a combo of an AFG and a dedicated bipod is my personal preference. i just love the AFG and of course I love a bipod for when i do a crap ton of prone shooting.

As to being owned, the shooter is more important and I'm confident in my abilities, but most competition shooters will outshoot me monday to friday. I plink and hunt.

ImportConvert · 09-06-2012, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

personal preference. You can tac out your AR all you want but then some dude with a stock 6920 will come and own you.

Yep, need to fix the software issue, too.
That's what I'm working on, now, myself.

ImportConvert · 09-06-2012, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooster89

Grip-pod? or dedicated foregrip and dedicated bipod? Yay, back on topic

I think the grip-pod is a pretty heavy piece of kit. Just get a bipod. The chicken-choker hold is out-dated.

It came about because of 7" carbine rails + PEQ + a light + a BUIS = not much room for a hand.

It was a darn good solution to making space!

The problem is that it is below the bore axis, and this makes your movement of the weapon much slower, using it.

I still use a VFG, but it's a LaRue QD VFG and gets used more as a "hand-stop" than an actual VFG. It's small, and the contour of it near the rail, I like. I tried others and they didn't feel as nice when used this way. This is not me, but this is how I use mine:

This is what the "Chicken Choker" deal is all about, and you can see why it used to be the way it was done:

The light/PEQ2 need to be in front of the hand so that they can be used, and they take up rail space. There is no-longer a place for this man to grip the weapon near the front, or on the rail at all. The alternative is the VFG, or mag-well grip.

So what do we now see civilians doing?

He has no light. He has no PEQ. He just saw someone doing that on Fox News or the internet and figured he would mount his VFG as close to himself as possible and hold it like a broom-handle. Never mind that this kills his leverage to move the muzzle of the carbine in a rapid and controlled manner. Never mind that it places his hand far below the central axis of the weapon which gives up even MORE leverage---HE SAW A SEAL DO IT, AND HE CAN BE A BADASS, TOO!

And then we got mag-well grips and all sorts of stupid crap that separates people from their money and hurts their multiple target engagement times, etc.

But if we look at how people like Kyle Defoor and Mike Pannone are doing it...

But maybe you're not all about "being tacticool". You just want to win some 3-gun matches or improve on the range, and could care less about a light, PEQ, etc. Well...here is what the "gamers" are doing...

A trend emerges...hand as close to the muzzle as possible, thumb over bore.

This gives a LOT! more control than...hand as close to shooter as possible and as far below bore as possible. Try it. You might throw your VFG up for sale...unless you have a light and a PEQ and...

...or like me, you enjoy using it as a hand-stop, to support the weapon when it's not being aimed/fired, or for other viable reasons.

Either way, the grip-pod is a POS in my opinion. There are much better bipods, and there are much more useful VFG's.

My .02...

I cannot stop being butthurt over how many stupid purchases I made in the past because "I saw a SEAL do it" and "It looks cool" and other nonsense. Now that I have some intelligent, mission-driven knowledge being sent my way, I am trying to help prevent others from a similar butthurt experience when they bring their "Tac'ed out" carbine to a course and discover that their lay-out is slow, stupid, and works only for pictures in their mother's basement. I still have not completely figured out how I am going to end up setting my stuff up, but I have changed a lot of things. I suspect (and hope that) my personal evolution will continue.

My evolution went something like this:

Big, heavy incan light = bad. LED = good.

ACOG = crappy CQ optic, survivalist-nut obsession over lack of batteries is stupid, stada lines matched only to M855 are usable only for range estimation. Aimpoint/Eotech = all you need for a defense weapon, and general use out to 200 yards, easily!

More rail = more leverage!

This is similar to how I was planning to start off years ago, although I never completed the build, so this picture is not mine, but what I planned:

It would have been horrible for almost everything I would actually need a firearm for regarding self-defense.

This is a picture of a setup VERY SIMILAR to the one I am waiting on the ATF to approve for me currently:

Not as much rail as I would prefer, but my setup has the Switchblock, which limits that a little bit, to the benefit of a smoother cycling weapon with a lot less fouling. The trade-off was worth it, as I LOVE! the SB on my 14.5" carbine. It makes suppressed fire much nicer. It will be much better for use at contact-200 yards, won't blow my ears out, and will only feel like a 14-15" barrel even with my suppressor attached. Will keep muzzle-flash from blinding me in my house at night, will keep my inner ears from getting all messed up if I fire it in a hall, etc. It's just an infinitely useful accessory, and the setup is so much better than the A4 clone I had planned, which would have only come into its own as a range-toy. Everything else, the SBR setup will do better at. I don't need the optic to live for decades if it sucks every day. I would rather run an RDS that is better every day, and change the battery every year on my birthday (Battery life for the T1 is something like 5-6 years on a nominal setting of 8, and batteries last 10+ years just sitting on a shelf...it's really a non-issue. If society melts down and you "can never buy them again", you've still got over a decade of premium self-defense optic. Who cares if your ACOG will be around and glowing in 15-20 if you couldn't use it inside your house to defend yourself effectively during the first few MONTHS of the crisis, or even a simple B&E if no "crisis" occurs, which is the thing most people use to leverage their opinions of a "battery-free optic", since they have given up trying to claim that Aimpoints, etc. are "fragile".)

tvfreakazoid · 09-06-2012, 08:41 AM

Maybe they r just misinformed

.

So the VG is suppose to be further out???

If so, I didn't know it myself.

The way these guys hold their rifles (Kyle Defoor and Mike Pannone) works well for them, but for a south paw like me, i don't want brass hitting my arm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

I think the grip-pod is a pretty heavy piece of kit. Just get a bipod. The chicken-choker hold is out-dated.

It came about because of 7" carbine rails + PEQ + a light + a BUIS = not much room for a hand.

It was a darn good solution to making space!

The problem is that it is below the bore axis, and this makes your movement of the weapon much slower, using it.

I still use a VFG, but it's a LaRue QD VFG and gets used more as a "hand-stop" than an actual VFG. It's small, and the contour of it near the rail, I like. I tried others and they didn't feel as nice when used this way. This is not me, but this is how I use mine:

This is what the "Chicken Choker" deal is all about, and you can see why it used to be the way it was done:

The light/PEQ2 need to be in front of the hand so that they can be used, and they take up rail space. There is no-longer a place for this man to grip the weapon near the front, or on the rail at all. The alternative is the VFG, or mag-well grip.

So what do we now see civilians doing?

He has no light. He has no PEQ. He just saw someone doing that on Fox News or the internet and figured he would mount his VFG as close to himself as possible and hold it like a broom-handle. Never mind that this kills his leverage to move the muzzle of the carbine in a rapid and controlled manner. Never mind that it places his hand far below the central axis of the weapon which gives up even MORE leverage---HE SAW A SEAL DO IT, AND HE CAN BE A BADASS, TOO!

And then we got mag-well grips and all sorts of stupid crap that separates people from their money and hurts their multiple target engagement times, etc.

But if we look at how people like Kyle Defoor and Mike Pannone are doing it...

But maybe you're not all about "being tacticool". You just want to win some 3-gun matches or improve on the range, and could care less about a light, PEQ, etc. Well...here is what the "gamers" are doing...

A trend emerges...hand as close to the muzzle as possible, thumb over bore.

This gives a LOT! more control than...hand as close to shooter as possible and as far below bore as possible. Try it. You might throw your VFG up for sale...unless you have a light and a PEQ and...

...or like me, you enjoy using it as a hand-stop, to support the weapon when it's not being aimed/fired, or for other viable reasons.

Either way, the grip-pod is a POS in my opinion. There are much better bipods, and there are much more useful VFG's.

My .02...

I cannot stop being butthurt over how many stupid purchases I made in the past because "I saw a SEAL do it" and "It looks cool" and other nonsense. Now that I have some intelligent, mission-driven knowledge being sent my way, I am trying to help prevent others from a similar butthurt experience when they bring their "Tac'ed out" carbine to a course and discover that their lay-out is slow, stupid, and works only for pictures in their mother's basement. I still have not completely figured out how I am going to end up setting my stuff up, but I have changed a lot of things. I suspect (and hope that) my personal evolution will continue.

My evolution went something like this:

Big, heavy incan light = bad. LED = good.

ACOG = crappy CQ optic, survivalist-nut obsession over lack of batteries is stupid, stada lines matched only to M855 are usable only for range estimation. Aimpoint/Eotech = all you need for a defense weapon, and general use out to 200 yards, easily!

More rail = more leverage!

This is similar to how I was planning to start off years ago, although I never completed the build, so this picture is not mine, but what I planned:

It would have been horrible for almost everything I would actually need a firearm for regarding self-defense.

This is a picture of a setup VERY SIMILAR to the one I am waiting on the ATF to approve for me currently:

Not as much rail as I would prefer, but my setup has the Switchblock, which limits that a little bit, to the benefit of a smoother cycling weapon with a lot less fouling. The trade-off was worth it, as I LOVE! the SB on my 14.5" carbine. It makes suppressed fire much nicer. It will be much better for use at contact-200 yards, won't blow my ears out, and will only feel like a 14-15" barrel even with my suppressor attached. Will keep muzzle-flash from blinding me in my house at night, will keep my inner ears from getting all messed up if I fire it in a hall, etc. It's just an infinitely useful accessory, and the setup is so much better than the A4 clone I had planned, which would have only come into its own as a range-toy. Everything else, the SBR setup will do better at. I don't need the optic to live for decades if it sucks every day. I would rather run an RDS that is better every day, and change the battery every year on my birthday (Battery life for the T1 is something like 5-6 years on a nominal setting of 8, and batteries last 10+ years just sitting on a shelf...it's really a non-issue. If society melts down and you "can never buy them again", you've still got over a decade of premium self-defense optic. Who cares if your ACOG will be around and glowing in 15-20 if you couldn't use it inside your house to defend yourself effectively during the first few MONTHS of the crisis, or even a simple B&E if no "crisis" occurs, which is the thing most people use to leverage their opinions of a "battery-free optic", since they have given up trying to claim that Aimpoints, etc. are "fragile".)

ImportConvert · 09-06-2012, 08:51 AM

The further toward the muzzle you are with your hand, the more control you will have over the weapon.

m4a1mustang · 09-06-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

The further toward the muzzle you are with your hand, the more control you will have over the weapon.

I remember when I tried it for the first time. I had never really thought to grip that far out but saw some discussion on it and figured I'd give it a try. There's just no comparison to the level of control you get from gripping farther forward, especially when moving from target to target quickly.

BlackZeda · 09-06-2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

The further toward the muzzle you are with your hand, the more control you will have over the weapon.

If you want to go all minimalist the Mount-N-Slot Weapon Control Mount is a great option:

With the combination of the 11" Troy/VTAC Battlerail you get a really comfortable forward grip on the weapon which in turn gives you a lot of control. The Weapon Control Mount does come in a version where you can attach it to a picatinny rail forarm:

Impact Weapons Components

It's cheap too!

ImportConvert · 09-06-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackZeda

If you want to go all minimalist the Mount-N-Slot Weapon Control Mount is a great option:

With the combination of the 11" Troy/VTAC Battlerail you get a really comfortable forward grip on the weapon which in turn gives you a lot of control. The Weapon Control Mount does come in a version where you can attach it to a picatinny rail forarm:

Impact Weapons Components

It's cheap too!

When Noveske gets their monolithic Key-Mod setup completed with Vltor, I will likely be a customer...

I like monolithic uppers because they enhance bolt-life, increase accuracy, reduce zero-shift with a suppressor, etc.

The down-side is that if you damage the rail, the upper is trash.

m4a1mustang · 09-06-2012, 07:42 PM

I have the AFG2 on mine right now, but I feel like I can't mount it far enough forward to my liking (mid-length MOE handguard w/ rail). I have to play around with it some more.

Rooster89 · 09-06-2012, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

I have the AFG2 on mine right now, but I feel like I can't mount it far enough forward to my liking (mid-length MOE handguard w/ rail). I have to play around with it some more.

magpul AFGs are amazing. Its honestly the most comfortable for me.

Thanks for the great post IC. Repped.

CSA0890 · 09-07-2012, 01:04 AM

here is my FN SCAR 17S I bought a few months ago. I love it

ImportConvert · 09-07-2012, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSA0890

here is my FN SCAR 17S I bought a few months ago. I love it

Very nice!

Ubetit · 09-13-2012, 05:06 PM

Demilled HK33 kit with a SW flat/receiver.

m4a1mustang · 09-16-2012, 12:55 AM

Got an Aimpoint PRO as a gift today.

Vichtz · 09-16-2012, 01:04 PM

hey guys, sorry for the thread jack, but I turn 21 on the 21st of this month

rather than be another statistic, I've decided rather than drink I'm going to get my first handgun. My father and I have been shooting for years, and I already own a Kel-tec RFB, Mossberg 500, and rem 700 in 300wm. I was looking for suggestions on which handgun. My dad has an HK USP that has the nastiest trigger I have ever used so I don't want to go that way. I found a screamin deal on Sprinfield Armory lightweight operator 1911, are they any good? I know SA is a premium brand, but I have never actually had any range time with one.

09-06-2012, 07:42 PM	#2439 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	I have the AFG2 on mine right now, but I feel like I can't mount it far enough forward to my liking (mid-length MOE handguard w/ rail). I have to play around with it some more. __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

09-16-2012, 12:55 AM	#2444 (permalink)
m4a1mustang A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Northern VA Posts: 55,385 Drives: on two wheels Rep Power: 6962	Got an Aimpoint PRO as a gift today. __________________ - Steve Zs & Coffee - Saturdays at 10AM in Fairfax, VA and Columbia, MD (Click the banner!) LIKE us on Facebook!

09-16-2012, 01:04 PM	#2445 (permalink)
Vichtz Track Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Unknown Posts: 538 Drives: PG 09 Nissan 370z Rep Power: 14	hey guys, sorry for the thread jack, but I turn 21 on the 21st of this month rather than be another statistic, I've decided rather than drink I'm going to get my first handgun. My father and I have been shooting for years, and I already own a Kel-tec RFB, Mossberg 500, and rem 700 in 300wm. I was looking for suggestions on which handgun. My dad has an HK USP that has the nastiest trigger I have ever used so I don't want to go that way. I found a screamin deal on Sprinfield Armory lightweight operator 1911, are they any good? I know SA is a premium brand, but I have never actually had any range time with one. __________________ очень быстро ... Stillen Gen 3 CAI// Stillen CBE// B&M SS with PWJDM Shift Knob// Custom OCC// Drilled/Slotted Rotors//Halo/painted Headlights// Under-hood dress up

09-06-2012, 08:51 AM	#2435 (permalink)
ImportConvert A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: SWMO Posts: 4,454 Drives: 2019 CX5 GT Reserve Rep Power: 7627	The further toward the muzzle you are with your hand, the more control you will have over the weapon.

09-07-2012, 01:04 AM	#2441 (permalink)
CSA0890 Base Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 174 Drives: 2011 Tour/Spt 7AT Rep Power: 14	here is my FN SCAR 17S I bought a few months ago. I love it

09-13-2012, 05:06 PM	#2443 (permalink)
Ubetit Track Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Ohio Posts: 527 Drives: the women lazy Rep Power: 14	Demilled HK33 kit with a SW flat/receiver.