Anyone here into firearms?

MacCool

Bushmaster, DPMS, CMMG, Olympic Arms....these are all generally considered to be lower tier rifles. This is objectively based on the materials used in their construction, the level of QA, and observation of failure rates in high round-count situations. Subjectively, people who shoot a lot and have experience with these brands wouldn't have one. As a budget range toy, that you can take out, show your buddies your new "Army rifle" shoot a couple of hundred rounds a year then put back in the closet, those lower tier rifles can be perfectly fine. You just wouldn't want to bet your life on one. The difficult part is that in many cases you'll pay as much for a DPMS or Bushmaster as you will for a Colt. For my part, there are several brands that I own or have owned and that I'm a fan of. My suspicion about Bushmaster and its ilk is based on lots of shooting, lots of hanging around guys who shoot, many instructional carbine courses from nationally known instructors. I've heard what they say, and I've seen those rifles break in courses when they're put to the test. There are a lot of DPMS rifles around here (DPMS HQ is about 60 miles from here). Like I said...range toy?...have at it. Gonna bet your life on that rifle or take pride in owning demonstrably high-quality firerarms?...get one that's well made and reliable. Me? I'm inclined to buy the best quality I can afford. I buy my tools from Snap-On, not Harbor Freight.

Go over to M4Carbine.net and do a search (use the orange search button in the top header) on Bushmaster, or Rock River Arms, or DPMS.

xdeslitx

@BlackZeda - How many rounds have you put through your Bushmasters since MacCool mentioned reliability issues when used a lot?

BlackZeda

I just sold one of my Bushmasters, but the one I kept was ole' reliable; the one I take camping or when I treat friends that haven't shot an AR to some plinking in the mountains. It has about 3000 rounds of either Federal or Winchester ammo through it over the years.

The Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) was upgraded by one from FailZero, and before that I replaced the bolt itself once because of the carbon build-up. To me I view that as regular maintenance aside from scraping. I have found that lubing it after 200 rounds will keep it running well without any issues. Also after any shooting session I will clean my firearms.

MacCool

I'll put 2000 rounds through any given rifle in one 3-day carbine course, and I usually do two or three of those a year, not including twice a year SO training and qualification. My Noveske Light Recce has about 15,000 rounds through it, everything from PMC Bronze, M855, and boatloads of some kind of Pakistani crap (POF) that the Bomb Squad got for disposal. I've replaced the gas rings and an extractor. Bolt and BCG look like new. During those two or three day courses I don't clean until after the course is done, only lube.

frost

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BlackZeda

2000 rounds is quite a lot of shooting...I was planning on taking a tactical AR course this summer so now I know how much ammo I should order. Do you use Magpul PMAGs per chance? If so how do those hold up from all that shooting?

MacCool

I use Pmags for the most part. There are occasional issues as they age, but no worse than USGI mags and probably fewer. The only time I've had a Pmag fail in a high round-count shooting situation has been the rare occasion where a round will get cockeyed in the mag and jam it up. OTOH, I tend to have recurring problems with aluminum mag feed lips getting bent. IMHO, Pmags stand up better for longer than USGI mags. I've never had a reason to regret using Pmags in high round count situations.

Longevity and reliability of a rifle like the AR15 is truly variable from brand to brand. A lot of people, in defending their DPMS etc rifle, will report that it's a real "tack driver". I don't understand the opinion that accuracy equals quality. The AR15 isn't a precision weapon and accuracy has nothing to do with reliability, which is the main thing one wants in a combat weapon. The weak spot in the consumer grade rifles tends to be the BCG, especially the bolt, gas key, and extractor and this is made worse by the well-known tendency for those rifles to be overgassed. That leads to more heat, more violent action of the BCG, more stress, more likely failure of those parts, especially the extractor, bolt, and gas rings, and also the receiver extension. Catastrophic failure is rare, but less rare in upper tier rifles where the BCG and bolt are proof-fired and magnafluxed. Other issues with rifles like the Bushmaster are their adherence to specs. I don't disagree that a Bushmaster or RRA that doesn't have issues with feeding, or an overly tight chamber, and does have proper staking of the gas key, and whose frame is in-spec is probably OK, but mfgrs like Noveske do more quality testing and have stricter tolerance standards and your odds of buying a reliable rifle are substantially increased. Because they test and throw away a higher percentage of their parts, the cost goes up in favor of a rifle that will work better for longer. The other issue with the lower tier rifles is the steel they use in their barrels, that nature of the rifling, the forging method, and the quality of the bore lining. 4140 steel just doesn't hold up as long as 4150. Not likely an issue in a rifle that's going to see 3000 rounds over several years, but after 15000 rounds, you're going to see an issue. Those consumer-grade rifle mfgrs feel more confident in relaxing their spec requirments on that stuff because the vast majority of shooters just aren't going to shoot them enough for the weak spots to manifest themselves. Now, one could say that your average non-professional shooter doesn't need the level of quality and reliability that Noveske, or BCM, or DD, or Colt, or LMT builds into their rifles, and that's probably true, but a lot of it depends on what you expect from your firearms. Personally, I am inclined to go with professional grade and I go out of my way to buy firearms that are top level. I don't do that because I expect I'll have to use it someday to defend my family from the advancing hoards and I'll never (I hope) have to take my firearms into combat, but as a point of pride or whatever, I want firearms that are designed for that purpose anyway. I'm not a professional carpenter, but I buy Milwaukee drills instead of Black and Decker. I'm not a professional mechanic, but I buy my wrenches from Snap-On or MAC, not Chinese imports from Harbor Freight.

2000 rounds over three days is a lot of shooting. Most courses are less than that, maybe between 1000-1500 rounds. And most people aren't going to take 2 or 3 of those a year like I do. But I go to courses where people are shooting Bushmasters, RRA, etc, and when stressed with repeated courses of fire of multiple mags in only a few minutes, I see them fail with enough regularity that I have always resolved to have a good enough rifle that I never have to worry about being that guy. As a range plinker, those lower-tier rifles may well be good enough for most people, but I am utterly convinced of the differences between Bushmaster/DPMS/RRA/Oly/Armalite and Colt/Noveske/DD/LMT/BCM, and I wouldn't go that direction, especially when one looks at the cost differences. In most cases, you may only see ~$200 price difference between a given Bushmaster and a BCM outfitted similarly.

I cannot recommend instructional carbine courses highly enough. The amount that you will learn about function, maintenance, manual of arms, and shooting skill is vast. Even if you're not a professional gunfighter, you've chosen to own a combat weapon. I have found it very gratifying to learn how to use it in the manner and for the purpose for which it was designed even if I'll never have to use it for that purpose. Some guys like golf and spend a fortune on clubs, instruction, and greens fees even though they'll never play in a tourament in their lives. I don't golf.

I'm a medical consultant for the Sheriff's Department, mainly Tac Team and Bomb Squad, and have been for more than 16 years. I have to train with them, and I have to shoot with them to the same standards required of the deputies. We do monthly training and twice-a-year range qualifications with all of the weapons. No doubt my attitudes have been shaped by association with those highly professional law enforcement officers, and are different than your average firearms buyer. So, my opinions may well be over-the-top. But I keep coming back to the cost differential between the various tiers of weapons. You don't have to spend twice as much to get a rifle that is twice as good.

Sorry for the long rant.

phelan

noob question, but do i use grease or oil? i don't intend to shoot really often, so i was leaning towards grease as lubricant. any ideas / tips?

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m4a1mustang

Phelan I use motor oil. I have a few quarts of Redline 5w-20 left over from my Z that I use as gun lube now. 3 quarts will last me a LONG time!

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phelan

okay, thanks

i've built a small list of what i need, but basically:
bore snake
break free
lubricant (i have some oil too, but i think i can grab some grease at work as well) + syringe
wire brush
nylon brush

is that it? ooh...cotton patches?

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凛 ('Rin') - 2009 Nissan 370Z
With silence comes peace. With peace comes freedom. With freedom comes silence.

MacCool

What are you cleaning? Cleaning kits tend to be firearm-specific, pistol vs rifle, bolt vs semi-auto, etc etc.

Firearm lubrication opinions are as controversial and as full of snake oil as automobile lubrication. IMHO, a lot of the same concepts apply. The theoretical problem with grease is that is is more likely to attract and especially hold dirt, sand, and grit than oil and act as an abrasive that will then increase friction and actually wear parts faster than normal. The problem with semi automatic firearms is that there is a lot of heat and pressure on the moving parts. Grease is an attractive option for that reason.

I think there's merit to both arguments but I'm inclined to use oil, not grease and I prefer synthetic preparations. I tend to use Slip 2000 EWL or MachineGunner's Lube, but I agree with Mustang that a good synthetic engine oil is probably every bit as good, and certainly a lot cheaper. When my current bottle of Slip 2000 is empty, I think I'm going to fill it back up with Mobil 1 20w40.

xdeslitx

dude you can grab syringes at work? lol grab me some 1ml, 2ml, and 5ml :P

xdeslitx

I think i'll have to go with the higher tier stuff when it comes to an AR15 then...i like to shoot a lot. Not as much as Mac but I'm expecting to shoot about 1000 a month, just like the handgun

phelan

weird I thought I replied here. MacCool I'm cleaning my handgun - a Beretta PX4. I'm leaning towards using some 5w30 oil I have for now, and maybe switch it up later. But I'm open to thoughts and suggestions on what I absolutely need to clean the gun properly.

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凛 ('Rin') - 2009 Nissan 370Z
With silence comes peace. With peace comes freedom. With freedom comes silence.

frost

Motor oils as gun lubricants

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