CoronaVirus

cossie1600

Yes it was, but he could have done it without them. This is the same person that is pushing for his supporters to rally everywhere now. Both extreme sides are dumb and stupid , happy?

ZCanadian

I'm afraid that what your president has SAID on the matter is quite different from his actions on many occasions. This is not me being political. Just pointing out that what the other side said might, in some cases, be quite valid. And sometimes also gets twisted by new sources, just as what he says does by others.

For instance, closing the border with China probably was described as xenophobic, But since the virus was already worldwide by then it was also not a coherent policy decision. So, maybe it was really more of a political move in support of his wider trade war?

By the time of the closing of the border and the SOTUA, the world knew about the virus for a month. Media in other parts of the world were "sounding the alarm" for some time already.

There will be plenty of political fodder for the vultures of both sides to pick at once this train wreck is all over. I only wish that they could cooperate for long enough to get us there. In that respect (the fact that each wants the other to wear this), it is a political pawn. And because of that, I think you should hold trials, rather than an election this November. Those found worthy in a court of law would be allowed to run for office. The others all given covid laced popsicles to suck on!

FL 4Motion

We are in a classic dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t scenario. And the problem is we’ve been trying to have it both ways and failing to an extent bc of it. The only two real options have always been, China model, aka brutal lockdown and literally wait it out. Or, do nothing and ride it out in an attempt to preserve the economy (somewhat) at the expense of citizens lives, how many, tbd. The US is doing halfassed quarantine measures, even the most stringent areas don’t really come close to other more totalitarian countries, so that drags the pain both medically and economically out over a longer period. One of the main reasons for that is the whole mentality of a free society (not a bad thing, but it can create hurdles in situations like this, individual liberty vs common good health wise). Put it at a personal level, would you sacrifice your wife or child so someone half the country away can make his next mortgage payment or buy diapers for his new baby. See, no good or “right” answer to that. Americans, in my experience really have a hard time with these type of dilemmas bc we tend to have a very adolescent view of the world, up vs down, black vs white, good vs evil, communism vs capitalism. Sometimes this is accurate and when it is, we Americans tend to rise to the occasion and lead and do well, think WWII for example. The problem is our leaders and media try to place everything into this type of box and this pandemic is a perfect example of how that is failing us. Times like these require strong, courageous leadership to make the case for whatever the perceived “best” path forward is and then drag the whole country in that direction by sheer force of conviction and logical persuasive arguments. History would prove that person right.

I had more to say but I just forgot my train of thought...


Hang on ghost, earlier you said this virus killed millions based on Chinese cell data or something to that extent, now your saying it isn’t that deadly. Which is it? It can’t be both an underreported mass causality event cover up in China and also much ado about nothing and a liberal conspiracy to take away our freedoms cause it’s just another “common cold” or flu. Gotta stick to one conspiracy narrative man.

I do agree that in the USA, our quarantine/social distancing guidelines etc, how each area deals with this should be tailored to that specific area and not a one size fits all approach. HOWEVER, that only works if there is total lockdown on freedom of movement outside of each persons local area. This actually would have been the best way to do a quarantine here, case by case exemptions for goods only, military/national guard enforce and back local Leo’s but inside your “zone”, you are able to live as normally as the pandemic lets you. Ie, nyc would be very different than rural Kansas zone and both would be still different from medium size town zone and each zone would have to adjust for fire as the conditions on the ground changed. This would have less day to day impact on people and preserve some freedom of movement etc, but it would on principle be a hard pill for Americans to swallow. Less economic impact as well but there’d still be very serious effects, which govt bailout $$ would be used to mitigate as needed.

bunk

Closing the border to China could or could not have been a move to put pressure on China with regards to the trade war (doubt it though, because commerce was not blocked... but Chinas manufacturing had been halted from their shutdown). Regrdless, it was the right move. Then a few weeks later, he closed the border to Europe when Italy's cases began to go up. And again was called a xenophobe.

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FL 4Motion

The biggest issue with the current admin imo, was the pissing away of the opportunity they had to ramp up preparations during dec to feb timeframe. Also this apparent unwillingness to really utilize the dpa to the extent needed, always seems too little to late. Apparently bc of free market principles more than anything else, there are two things that trump capitalism imo, health and national defense, you don’t give up fighting a war that could result in lose of freedom cause it’s too expensive, no price is too high to ensure liberty, but our rich entitled elites seem to think that price only includes poor and working class/middle class blood, not their portfolios. Also, poor health outcomes eventually results in poor economic outcomes, unless of course, you just offshore all the labor, then to hell with regular folks ability to access quality health care, let those mutherfvckers eat cake. Not advocating for single payer necessarily, but we need massive health care reform and a drastic reduction in health care costs at every level.

ZCanadian

The European ban could have been criticized but only for a day, mainly by EU leaders as I recall. The WHO followed up with the same advice within 24 hours. I suspect that was an intentionally coordinated response. And yes, the right thing to do.

But it was 2 weeks before that when Italy's cases actually started to skyrocket. I don't think he ever shut down flights from South Korea (which had more cases earlier on than Italy did) until borders were locked down completely. By March 12 when the European ban was announced, the virus was present in most countries including the USA (which still had no working testing regime).

Funny (well, not funny, but strange) thing is, Canada did not institute the same travel bans (China, Europe) until later in March when all inbound traffic was halted. Yet (touch wood, not gloating by any means) our infection and death rates seem much lower. Infection rates per capita one could attribute to a smaller percentage of the population being tested as yet here. But deaths and hospitalizations are reasonably accurate numbers on both sides. We did instigate fairly rigorous closures / distancing measures, though not the lockdowns that China had by any means.

What's the right answer? Damned if I know. We can discuss that in about 18 months. I'd sure hate to be in charge right now, though!

ZCanadian

Interesting thing, the DPA.

I'm not that familiar with what was happening down there, but up here companies were falling all over each other to volunteer to change production over to masks, respirators, gowns, face shields. As soon as bars closed down, breweries from micro to some of the nations largest realized that they could keep people on by switching to hand sanitizer, and they did. Car parts makers, recognizing shut-downs would disrupt the supply chain greatly but mass layoffs would cause havoc on the other end of this, switched to making medical devices. Not saying they were efficient at it, but they saw an opportunity to keep people working and do their bit. No legislation required.

It did not hurt that the federal government offered to subsidize payrolls (up to 75% for any size company that could show a covid-related 30%+ drop in revenue from the month a year ago (or the month prior in the case of start-ups or fast growing companies). But that offer came after some big players had already announced they were pivoting for the greater good.

Don't know about you but if I have to go into hospital, I want my respirator to have this logo! :-)

FL 4Motion

Are Canucks healthier overall than us Americans? Ie, fewer preexisting conditions per capita. Less chronic stress, heart disease, obesity etc? Better access to healthcare (just stepped on a land mine with that one ).

Maybe I should just start ending my sentences with eh, and increase my daily dose of maple syrup.

FL 4Motion

[QUOTE=ZCanadian;3927284]Interesting thing, the DPA.

I'm not that familiar with what was happening down there, but up here companies were falling all over each other to volunteer to change production over to masks, respirators, gowns, face shields. As soon as bars closed down, breweries from micro to some of the nations largest realized that they could keep people on by switching to hand sanitizer, and they did. Car parts makers, recognizing shut-downs would disrupt the supply chain greatly but mass layoffs would cause havoc on the other end of this, switched to making medical devices. Not saying they were efficient at it, but they saw an opportunity to keep people working and do their bit. No legislation required.

It did not hurt that the federal government offered to subsidize payrolls (up to 75% for any size company that could show a covid-related 30%+ drop in revenue from the month a year ago (or the month prior in the case of start-ups or fast growing companies). But that offer came after some big players had already announced they were pivoting for the greater good.

Don't know about you but if I have to go into hospital, I want my respirator to have this logo! :-)



It probably has at least something to do with our American mentality vis-à-vis free market capitalism. Our companies and our govt place the highest premium on shareholder value as defined in 3 month increments. Nothing else matters. Greater good is laughable in this context, if I can’t make profit, then I won’t do it. You don’t see this at the small and mid sized company level but at the big publicly traded Corps, that’s def true. The dpa exists so our representative govt has the ability to temporarily supersede free market so we can get made what needs making in a time of unprecedented national emergency.

Of course, if deep down you believe this mostly much ado about nothing and a political football more than a crisis....

(As stated earlier, all crisis are politicized, hell even WWII was to an extent, at least at first). That still doesn’t not make it a legit crisis.

ZCanadian

Couldn't hurt, EH?


Health care access for sure. The rest, not as much as we'd like to believe up here, if I'm being honest. Especially not in our indigenous population.

It could be that certain ethnic groups that feature more predominantly in the US are more susceptible, or perhaps just that that their poor outcomes are related to other socio-economic factors. Really hard to say. Certainly, population density appears to be a factor with this disease, but we have a few large metropolitan areas (of a million or more, densely packed), and a large Chinese diaspora in Vancouver (and Toronto) as well as a major student population from there, many of whom travel home for things like our Christmas break or their Lunar New Year. Also, we have a large Iranian community (most of the people on that downed airliner were headed to Canada), and Iran was the second nation to be hard hit in this crisis.

And I'm not saying that we are immune or not going to feel the effects - just that our failure to stop inbound flights or screen incoming passengers did not seem to cost as many lives as one might have imagined. Merely an observation.

asht

Someone pointed out that the common cold is a coronavirus. That is true to some extent, some common colds are caused by one of the coronavirus family, but most are caused by the family of rhinovirus.

Covid-19 is caused by SARS-COV-2, which is just as if not more infectious and far more deadly - it’s mortality rate as yet known is much higher than influenza.

Just imagine if we were all allowed to just go on as normal, you caught it and then infected a loved one who then died as a result. How would you feel? I said to someone on another forum who was bleating that he couldn’t go to the pub. Imagine he did, took it home and killed his whole family - it’s pretty selfish and ignorant to think the health and medical experts are wrong.


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FL 4Motion

I don’t think at this point you can pinpoint a particular racial or ethnic group and say the virus is more deadly or serious simply based on that, it’s very hard to separate poor health outcomes based on race or ethnicity while controlling for poor socioeconomic issues which disproportionately affect certain groups. These groups also tend to be clustered in population dense areas where transmission is easier.

Eh?

FL 4Motion

Stupid rhinos.

DLSTR

US numbers are crazy - U.S. 41,379 dead 776,513 total cases
All in a few weeks. I want no part of such a mess to catch this virus or give to others. None

cossie1600

The race thing has already been debunked by the level of infection in Middle East and Europe. Here is the sad part. How many TRUE cases are there in countries that are not developed or we are not talking about. There's been a lot of cover ups by many countries, some are worse than others. The lying is another reason why we are getting f-ed over.