Lets talk science, Stillen Gen3 Intake

luigi90210 · 11-03-2013, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandingo

I remember reading about this a while back. Wouldn't the leaning-out effect be negated by a tune? The folks that posted before/after dynos showed gains from the G3 intake even after the A/F was corrected with Uprev if I remember correctly.

well with a tune, you rescale the MAF so it accounts for the extra air but you can also add some timing where the stock tune wouldnt have before and you can keep AFRs more consistent under WOT

the stillen intakes make much less power(closer 9whp) with a tune after everything but if you are talking about your only mod, its gonna make all that power because its being leaned out mechanically

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Lol the stillen doesn't trick the ecu, AEM does with the electric box they give you which is garbage. Doesn't matter the filter or the pipe size with the stillen, the MAF sees what it sees, period. The stillen isn't bigger or that really matters say you said 0.04" is nothing. Both are 2.5" OD, just depends how thick the material is which will change the ID but not enough to measure MAF scale or HP wise.

I agree with it does help coming from a certain point and not with it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter than having the radiator running in the summer would produce the same temps as in the winter. We're only talking about 20-40 degrees maybe difference but you can see big temp swings. Keeping the compressor housings as cool as possible will increase results. A cai even in a turbo car will be better than a sri in the engine bay.

the stillen does trick the computer, just not to the extent other intakes do, the stillen is 2.5in intake tubes with a taper down section to 2.38in(or something like that) also i never said AEM intakes were good, just that it didnt fool the MAF mechanically like the other intakes(it does it like SAFC did back in the day), plus i hear good things about the AEM intake, and with it being 2.75in straight through, you always get better flow than an intake that tapers down at the maf section

also i dont know where you are going with the radiator thing, but a cold air intake on a turbo might help the turbo produce 1psi more, if you're lucky

if you were shooting for the highest HP number on the dyno, a CAI on a turbo car might get you there, but for the most part its a waste of money, you'll get more power from an intercooler swap than you would a CAI

xxAGAVExx · 11-03-2013, 08:31 AM

That was breaking apart molecules, not destroying atoms, completely different. I breath in a mixture of oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide, doesn't mean I'm a walking nuclear power plant, which I think synolimit was referring to.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

synolimit · 11-03-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

well with a tune, you rescale the MAF so it accounts for the extra air but you can also add some timing where the stock tune wouldnt have before and you can keep AFRs more consistent under WOT

the stillen intakes make much less power(closer 9whp) with a tune after everything but if you are talking about your only mod, its gonna make all that power because its being leaned out mechanically

the stillen does trick the computer, just not to the extent other intakes do, the stillen is 2.5in intake tubes with a taper down section to 2.38in(or something like that) also i never said AEM intakes were good, just that it didnt fool the MAF mechanically like the other intakes(it does it like SAFC did back in the day), plus i hear good things about the AEM intake, and with it being 2.75in straight through, you always get better flow than an intake that tapers down at the maf section

also i dont know where you are going with the radiator thing, but a cold air intake on a turbo might help the turbo produce 1psi more, if you're lucky

if you were shooting for the highest HP number on the dyno, a CAI on a turbo car might get you there, but for the most part its a waste of money, you'll get more power from an intercooler swap than you would a CAI

You don't have to rescale the Stillen's as they are almost 100% the same ID as OEM.

I'm sorry but again it doesn't trick the ecu. The smoother flow and better filter increase the G/sec flow rate the MAF sees. As it increases, the MAF and ecu correct the AFR. There is no trick. Its just doing its job for better AFR and power. It's still not 100% optimal as its on the rich side (12.4-11.9 on my car) but its good enough to still stay safe and add power. This is why stillen uses OEM size MAF housing. There is also no taper. They just use a 3" filter to 2.5" OD pipe. So yes there's a taper but that doesn't matter as its only 3 inches long and it's no where near the MAF housing. The whole thing is the same size at 2.5" OD, same as OEM.

You don't get good results with the AEM. Tricking the ecu is garbage and to tune out that trick is garbage. I've seen it personally make a car have less hp then stock because of it. On a NA car you are no where near maxing out the MAF volts with the OEM size. There's no need to go bigger pipe and be forced to rescale the MAF. In fact have a bigger pipe will yield no results as you were forced to rescale the larger pipe back down to OEM size, the ecu will think it has OEM size again. Pulling in say 2 volts passed the MAF in 2.75" piping will give you the same g/sec vs pulling in 4 volts in 2.5" piping. Its a NA car. There is no forced induction. The car can only suck in air that its able to. Once tuned with timing and mods you're done.

I was getting to that keeping the compressor cooler with cooler air is always better. Bringing in 60 degree ambient temp vs 200 engine bay temps will always add HP! Doesn't matter if it has a intercooler or not. Starting at a lower charged temp vs a higher one will yield in a cold side intercooler with cooler denser temps. On my cars colder air didn't add psi as I was ecu and waste gate psi controlled, but using your example "you may get 1 more psi," I don't know about you but my turbos psi ran me 15-20 more HP!!! I'll take that all day long to put the filter in a cai vs a sri.

But if you already have a IC you're not going to buy another one. And again it does make a difference no matter the IC! If its 60 degrees out, a compressor is 250 degrees, that mix goes through the IC, and out the other side pops out 65 degrees it makes a huge difference vs you put the filter in the engine bay where its 200 degrees, the compressor is again 250 degrees, that mixes and goes through the IC and out pops 90 degrees this time. 30 degree intake temps is huge in HP! I've seen 20-30 HP swings playing with this stuff on my WRX's while tuning them.

luigi90210 · 11-03-2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

I was getting to that keeping the compressor cooler with cooler air is always better. Bringing in 60 degree ambient temp vs 200 engine bay temps will always add HP! Doesn't matter if it has a intercooler or not. Starting at a lower charged temp vs a higher one will yield in a cold side intercooler with cooler denser temps. On my cars colder air didn't add psi as I was ecu and waste gate psi controlled, but using your example "you may get 1 more psi," I don't know about you but my turbos psi ran me 15-20 more HP!!! I'll take that all day long to put the filter in a cai vs a sri.

But if you already have a IC you're not going to buy another one. And again it does make a difference no matter the IC! If its 60 degrees out, a compressor is 250 degrees, that mix goes through the IC, and out the other side pops out 65 degrees it makes a huge difference vs you put the filter in the engine bay where its 200 degrees, the compressor is again 250 degrees, that mixes and goes through the IC and out pops 90 degrees this time. 30 degree intake temps is huge in HP! I've seen 20-30 HP swings playing with this stuff on my WRX's while tuning them.

really a bigger intercooler doesnt do anything?
what exactly did you do to that WRX? i can tell you i gained an easy 50hp converting to a big FMIC on my turbo eclipse compared to the stock dinky SMIC, compared to the crap 10hp i got from a CAI on that car(i ended up selling it and moving to a SRI and i didnt lose power) hell my IATs also dropped big time stepping up to the bigger intercooler

also i dont know where you are getting those numbers but im pretty sure it only plays out with stock intercoolers(and even then it doesnt seeing as MCM put a CAI on a R34 and only gained 1kw and that was a stupid setup with the filter out in front of the dyno fan) but stepping up to a bigger intercooler will do much more for your car over a CAI but hey what would you WRX guys know, you all tend to use small TMIC over a FMIC

Chuck33079 · 11-03-2013, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

really a bigger intercooler doesnt do anything?

I keep re-reading his post, and I can't find where he said a bigger intercooler didn't do anything. Of course a bigger intercooler will cool the air more, assuming there isn't too much pressure drop across the core and you have to spin the turbo faster (generating more heat) to maintain the same boost pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

also i dont know where you are getting those numbers but im pretty sure it only plays out with stock intercoolers(and even then it doesnt seeing as MCM put a CAI on a R34 and only gained 1kw and that was a stupid setup with the filter out in front of the dyno fan) but stepping up to a bigger intercooler will do much more for your car over a CAI

Colder air into the inlet side of the intercooler will always end up with colder air out of the intercooler. Any intercooler. I'm not sure how that's even a point of discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luigi90210

but hey what would you WRX guys know, you all tend to use small TMIC over a FMIC

That's because going to a FMIC on that motor adds quite a bit of lag. I ran both. The TMIC heat soaks more when stopped, but it's a lot more responsive. You're comparing it to an inline four where going to a FMIC didn't add that much piping. On an EJ, it added eight feet of pipe..

synolimit · 11-04-2013, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

I keep re-reading his post, and I can't find where he said a bigger intercooler didn't do anything. Of course a bigger intercooler will cool the air more, assuming there isn't too much pressure drop across the core and you have to spin the turbo faster (generating more heat) to maintain the same boost pressure.

Colder air into the inlet side of the intercooler will always end up with colder air out of the intercooler. Any intercooler. I'm not sure how that's even a point of discussion.

That's because going to a FMIC on that motor adds quite a bit of lag. I ran both. The TMIC heat soaks more when stopped, but it's a lot more responsive. You're comparing it to an inline four where going to a FMIC didn't add that much piping. On an EJ, it added eight feet of pipe..

Correct. I never said a bigger one wouldnt do anything. Chuck is correct on everything he said and what I was trying to say.

Actually chuck I tuned and dyno'd from just the OEM tmic and my FMIC and saw no lag. In fact my FMIC lines never touched the tmic lines on HP or TQ during the runs. It gained quite a bit of everything and with the cooler charge temps timing could be increased. I will say this though, a turbos size does make a difference. In 09 the WRX got the same flow rate turbo as the 08+ STI. That's why WRX's now are faster then stis and can make the same power or more. They are lighter, better gear ratios, and run a OEM turbo about 38 lbs/min. Now the 08 and below WRX turbo (the little td04) is about 28 lbs/min. That little thing would probably see negative results using our large 12x26x3" FMIC.

Not that it matters here but here's a before and after tmic vs FMIC only. Also as you can see, full boost by 3600 rpm with such a big core is awesome!

Here's my best maxed out OEM motor, turbo, tranny, clutch etc. I believe it was 22-23psi with a taper down to 15-16psi. Still sub 4000 rpm and boost hitting mid 3000.

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Correct. I never said a bigger one wouldnt do anything. Chuck is correct on everything he said and what I was trying to say.

Actually chuck I tuned and dyno'd from just the OEM tmic and my FMIC and saw no lag. In fact my FMIC lines never touched the tmic lines on HP or TQ during the runs. It gained quite a bit of everything and with the cooler charge temps timing could be increased. I will say this though, a turbos size does make a difference. In 09 the WRX got the same flow rate turbo as the 08+ STI. That's why WRX's now are faster then stis and can make the same power or more. They are lighter, better gear ratios, and run a OEM turbo about 38 lbs/min. Now the 08 and below WRX turbo (the little td04) is about 28 lbs/min. That little thing would probably see negative results using our large 12x26x3" FMIC.

Not that it matters here but here's a before and after tmic vs FMIC only. Also as you can see, full boost by 3600 rpm with such a big core is awesome!

Here's my best maxed out OEM motor, turbo, tranny, clutch etc. I believe it was 22-23psi with a taper down to 15-16psi. Still sub 4000 rpm and boost hitting mid 3000.

I don't want to be the guy arguing semantics, but we're talking about two different things. You're correct, the FMIC doesn't materially effect the boost threshold of the turbo. I was talking about lag during changes in throttle position. At least for me, there was a noticable increase in the time it took for there to be positive pressure in the manifold from having to pressurize an additional eight feet of pipe. Granted, I was still running the OEM VF39 and those don't exactly move a lot of air.

andre12031948 · 11-04-2013, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

I don't want to be the guy arguing semantics, but we're talking about two different things. You're correct, the FMIC doesn't materially effect the boost threshold of the turbo. I was talking about lag during changes in throttle position. At least for me, there was a noticable increase in the time it took for there to be positive pressure in the manifold from having to pressurize an additional eight feet of pipe. Granted, I was still running the OEM VF39 and those don't exactly move a lot of air.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't a STOCK 370z's top h.p. numbers start at 7,000 rpm?

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andre12031948

Correct me if I'm wrong. Don't a STOCK 370z's top h.p. numbers start at 7,000 rpm?

The ones Syno posted? That's not from a Z. Z dyno charts peak around 7k or so. I haven't looked at a stock dyno recently, but I remember the peak being fairly near redline.

andre12031948 · 11-04-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

The ones Syno posted? That's not from a Z. Z dyno charts peak around 7k or so. I haven't looked at a stock dyno recently, but I remember the peak being fairly near redline.

Sorry, I thought it was a Z's. 5,400rpm top H.P.?

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 09:01 AM

It's from a stock turbo WRX. They peak well before redline.

Sh0velMan · 11-04-2013, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

It's from a stock turbo WRX. They peak well before redline.

Like almost every factory turbo 4 banger...

After driving the Z a lot, my MS3 feels like driving a diesel in comparison.

Time to shift @ like 5500 lol.

Chuck33079 · 11-04-2013, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh0velMan

Like almost every factory turbo 4 banger...

After driving the Z a lot, my MS3 feels like driving a diesel in comparison.

Time to shift @ like 5500 lol.

Yep. I'm still getting used to winding the tach out all the way, and I've put almost 20k on the Z.

Sh0velMan · 11-04-2013, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

Yep. I'm still getting used to winding the tach out all the way, and I've put almost 20k on the Z.

Yeah. It takes a total recalibration of the "time to shift" part of the brain, for sure. Especially since (at least, while N/A) the torque curve is so smooth, there's not an obvious "fall off" to indicate you should be shifting soon. Also makes the car feel slow, when it really isn't.

I guess I should also further qualify my statement in saying:

Like almost every factory turbo 4 banger over 2 liters in displacement.

Since I know that there are 2.0 turbo cars that make 7 grand easy and I don't wanna get "called out" for not being 100% accurate. (Evo's, anything SR20DET equipped, the Genesis, etc)

lol.

synolimit · 11-04-2013, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

I don't want to be the guy arguing semantics, but we're talking about two different things. You're correct, the FMIC doesn't materially effect the boost threshold of the turbo. I was talking about lag during changes in throttle position. At least for me, there was a noticable increase in the time it took for there to be positive pressure in the manifold from having to pressurize an additional eight feet of pipe. Granted, I was still running the OEM VF39 and those don't exactly move a lot of air.

I was referring to lag. If full boost can be achieved well below 4000rpm, the turbo is effective at filling the FMIC without seeing any negative effect. Again though it depends on the turbos size. I'm not sure how small the vf39 was but the 09 and 08 WRX/STI get about 38 lbs/min turbos in the vf52 and vf48.

11-03-2013, 08:31 AM	#62 (permalink)
xxAGAVExx A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Tampa Posts: 1,036 Drives: 09 370Z BLK M6 Rep Power: 53924	Lets talk science, Stillen Gen3 Intake That was breaking apart molecules, not destroying atoms, completely different. I breath in a mixture of oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide, doesn't mean I'm a walking nuclear power plant, which I think synolimit was referring to. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Chuck33079 and luigi90210 like this. __________________ l 09/6MT l BP Twin Turbo Kit l E-85 w/Fuel Return l FI 18" Res CF CBE l Powertrix Ultra-Lite Coilovers l Wavetrac LSD \| Lots of SPL and Carbon Fiber \|

11-04-2013, 09:01 AM	#71 (permalink)
Chuck33079 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 12,265 Drives: 2011 370ztt Rep Power: 29539	It's from a stock turbo WRX. They peak well before redline. __________________ 2011 MB Touring-Sport-6sp-Nav/GTM TT/FI TT TDX/JTran/Kosmic/Eibach/Hotchkis/SPC/CSF/RPS/SoThatsWhereAllMyMoneyWent

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