the crank shaft its harmonic balance?

SS_Firehawk · 01-21-2013, 03:24 PM

Just a FYI, the DE motors use the same crank as ours, on an old Maxima DE of all engines, so it just adds to my skepticism

Link of the pic: 3rd gen VQ35DE Full ECU Swap Progress Thread - Maxima Forums

Red__Zed · 01-21-2013, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Here is the issue regarding arguing my points. There isn't an aftermarket company on the planet that has the R&D of a car manufacturer. Due to the nature of the industry, Most Engineers that design cars are not going to expound in much detail, if at all on why they may have done things a certain way. There is plenty of research on resonance, torsion, N/V/H, and negative harmonics because it's already a known. Most of my findings are from manufacturers, but also reading about the issue at hand. I haven't read a single cited source that has said specifically, the way our pulley was designed, that it is a dampener of potentially destructive harmonics. Every description and engineering paper I read shows a rubber dampener that is encased with the rubber set vertical. Ours is vertical and only about 5mm thick. It looks like it's preventing all the accessories from vibrating or introducing more N/V/H to the crank as opposed to removing bad harmonics from the engine itself.

How do you determine that from looking at it?

Quote:

Every car company is going to say, leave your engine alone and it will be fine. Every aftermarket company that makes parts for said manufacturer is going to say, "Buy this and it will be even better" Who do you believe? Forums like this is feedback from everyone. I said it before, take everything you read in here with a grain of salt. Yes, even everything I say and argue about, which I admittedly do a lot sometimes. I'm not out to convince the World, but there are always two sides to the story. Obviously, it's difficult to go wrong with a stock crank pulley. I 100% agree. I also believe a well engineered aftermarket crank pulley can be safe to use. Some do not. People ask why, we say what we think, preferably have relevant source material to back our findings. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Is the Bible indisputable fact? Do you believe every animal floated around Noah's ARK for months and the entire Earth flooded?

wat?

Quote:

I used the word mitigate because regardless of internal or external balancing, spin a motor fast enough and even the best motors can grenade to harmonics. If Nissan plans on spinning the VQ to 9-10,000 rpm or higher, I'm pretty sure we would see a different crank pulley, maybe to a true dampener.

We are not discussing balancing.

Quote:

FYI, I never stated my finding's as absolute facts. I listed my arguments to the topic.

Got it. I guess I am misreading these posts then:

Quote:

Look at the crank pulley, remove the damn thing and look at it, there is nothing about it that dampens harmonics. It keeps the motor from dropping revs too fast, just like the stock flywheel in an attempt to keep drivability in tact.

Quote:

You haven't seen the size of it to fully understand. It will rot out well before the engine breaks. Is the motor going to explode when that happens? I'm pretty sure it won't. I'll be surprised if it lasts 15k miles before it rots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Just to clarify for what that rubber ring is for, it's to balance the pulley it's self. I wouldn't doubt it's to assist N/V/H as well, but we all know our engine is not the silkiest around.

Kyle @ Stillen asked Nissan engineers about it on an old thread

"This is a harmonic dampener of sorts, on that point you're exactly right. But it's not to balance the engine, it's to balance the pulley ITSELF."

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Don't put words in my mouth. Aftermarket pulley's have not shown to be a catalyst of engine failure for our specific engine.

The stock pulley is not a harmonic dampener to remove potential damaging frequencies.

The stock pulley with the rubber dampening sandwiched between the cast iron pieces is for N/V/H and balancing of the pulley it's self. The pulley is also balanced afterward by tapping.

Torsional effects are mitigated by balancing the entire rotating assembly and adding counterweights to the crank. No external balancing was necessary.

Engineers that work on designing and manufacturing factory engines have advanced engineering to the point where in most cases, external balancing and/or harmonic dampeners aren't necessary.

I don't take your quotes out of context, please award me the same.

Dear lord please show me the engineers that have figured out how to remove the harmonics. For some reason they still haven't filed a patent, and I need to beat them to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

That damper piece people think dampens vibration is a rubber gasket...that's it. It's made out of iron and heavy, not to magically remove non-existent super dangerous vibrations that emanate from our engine. It's the same reason they made the fluwheel a dual mass, to smooth things out, but it also saps engine response (and power). There aren't a lot of newer vehicles or engine designs that require an external damping mechanism. It's just a pulley. Even the stock piece is called a crank pulley. But alas, I'm wasting my breath to half the forum

"non-existent super dangerous vibrations"...Please explain this one.

Quote:

Regarding my statement about external balancing not being necessary, it is absolutely true for some smaller displacement motors. I think the VQ fits in this category, but there is room for argument there.

Still not discussing balancing.

Quote:

Lastly, and I'm repeating myself, DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK AND COME UP WITH YOUR OWN CONCLUSION!!! I'm tired of people giving recommendations like it's fact and not letting them decide for themselves by only giving them one side of the argument.

I guess you failed to read the post you replied to. Shocker.

DEpointfive0 · 01-21-2013, 03:31 PM

Guys, I doubt either of us are actually ássholes, I bet this thread will get locked

Please lets take a step back, smoke a cigarette, pop a pill, whatever we need to do to relax, lol

AT THE END OF THE DAY, NONE OF US ARE ENGINEERS WHO WORKED ON THIS MOTOR

OP, AND TO ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO INSTALL A LIGHTWEIGHT/UD PULLEY, ITSTALL IT AT YOUR OWN RISK!

We have provided enough data and opinions and such to last a lifetime, and to anyone thinking about it, use google, lol

edub370 · 01-21-2013, 03:32 PM

even without being an engineer, i know what happens when u mate 2 different metals with 2 melting/annealing points. but hey, i'll go ahead and stop mentioning it

DEpointfive0 · 01-21-2013, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edub370

even without being an engineer, i know what happens when u mate 2 different metals with 2 melting/annealing points. but hey, i'll go ahead and stop mentioning it

How long will it take for the metals to melt into each other?

SS_Firehawk · 01-21-2013, 03:47 PM

How about this Red, you prove me wrong, I know how you love to try, so go ahead. I'm waiting.

XwChriswX · 01-21-2013, 04:22 PM

Just to add some thought to those discussing AL melting points...

For the NST Pulley:

From: NST (NonStopTuning) 370Z VQ37HR Pulley Kit Review w/ Dyno Charts OP

There is a Steel sleeve around the internal part of the pulley. Won't that prevent some of the fusing you guys are projecting as a potential fail point?

Not trolling, this is what I was told that makes NST sets better than most.

Red__Zed · 01-21-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

How about this Red, you prove me wrong, I know how you love to try, so go ahead. I'm waiting.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you don't know enough to take the stance you are taking with any sort of authority.

Nobody here knows much about this, and the stance I've taken from the beginning is exactly that.

edub370 · 01-21-2013, 04:27 PM

The steel sleeve is for just that reason companies that don't put that much thought into this issue will have an issue with the metals fusing as stated above. And no i dont have an exact time from on how long this takes to occur

with all the given controversy as it is, WHY even risk it to gain a neglegable amount of power?? why risk it?

Red__Zed · 01-21-2013, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edub370

The steel sleeve is for just that reason companies that don't put that much thought into this issue will have an issue with the metals fusing as stated above. And no i dont have an exact time from on how long this takes to occur

with all the given controversy as it is, WHY even risk it to gain a neglegable amount of power?? why risk it?

I think the answer I saw earlier in the discussion was "because racecar"

SS_Firehawk · 01-21-2013, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying you don't know enough to take the stance you are taking with any sort of authority.

Nobody here knows much about this, and the stance I've taken from the beginning is exactly that.

If it seems like that, that's not the case. I'm no authority and I'm all for differing opinions. I don't like when it starts feeling like a personal attack because we hold opinions. But I'm happy to take a stance.

It doesn't help this is probably the most opinionated modification.

Red__Zed · 01-21-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

If it seems like that, that's not the case. I'm no authority and I'm all for differing opinions. I don't like when it starts feeling like a personal attack because we hold opinions. But I'm happy to take a stance.

It doesn't help this is probably the most opinionated modification.

I think posts like the below leave potential for someone to believe you are speaking fact, rather than your opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Don't put words in my mouth. Aftermarket pulley's have not shown to be a catalyst of engine failure for our specific engine.

The stock pulley is not a harmonic dampener to remove potential damaging frequencies.

The stock pulley with the rubber dampening sandwiched between the cast iron pieces is for N/V/H and balancing of the pulley it's self. The pulley is also balanced afterward by tapping.

Torsional effects are mitigated by balancing the entire rotating assembly and adding counterweights to the crank. No external balancing was necessary.

Engineers that work on designing and manufacturing factory engines have advanced engineering to the point where in most cases, external balancing and/or harmonic dampeners aren't necessary.

I don't take your quotes out of context, please award me the same.

The way the bolded reads, there isn't room for another thought. The statement that it is not a harmonic damper is actually wrong--we just don't know whether it is an important harmonic damper

All I'm seeking to do is clarify the reality for anyone that is confused and considering the mod.

XwChriswX · 01-21-2013, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edub370

The steel sleeve is for just that reason companies that don't put that much thought into this issue will have an issue with the metals fusing as stated above. And no i dont have an exact time from on how long this takes to occur

with all the given controversy as it is, WHY even risk it to gain a neglegable amount of power?? why risk it?

Honestly, like I said before, I didn't really do it for power.

I did it because I noticed a distinct improvement of engine response, and smoother revs. Power gain was minimal, but a bonus. Plus in terms of other mod/hp (intake/exhaust) it was fairly cheap.

And my experience has been the same with anything down to a recently searched thought on 7AT fluid changes, it all comes down to who does it. If installed properly, potential for failure is minimal. If installed improperly, potential for failure is exponential. Just my

DEpointfive0 · 01-21-2013, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XwChriswX

Honestly, like I said before, I didn't really do it for power.

I did it because I noticed a distinct improvement of engine response, and smoother revs. Power gain was minimal, but a bonus. Plus in terms of other mod/hp (intake/exhaust) it was fairly cheap.

And my experience has been the same with anything down to a recently searched thought on 7AT fluid changes, it all comes down to who does it. If installed properly, potential for failure is minimal. If installed improperly, potential for failure is exponential. Just my

I agree 100%

I don't know why edub cares so much what the rest of us do with our cars
Turbocharging and supercharging will destroy the engine MUCH quicker than a pulley, probably much quicker than the metals fusing to each other

Guys, this thread has gone too far
We're still not getting anywhere

Lets cut our losses

DEpointfive0 · 01-21-2013, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XwChriswX

Just to add some thought to those discussing AL melting points...

For the NST Pulley:

From: NST (NonStopTuning) 370Z VQ37HR Pulley Kit Review w/ Dyno Charts OP

There is a Steel sleeve around the internal part of the pulley. Won't that prevent some of the fusing you guys are projecting as a potential fail point?

Not trolling, this is what I was told that makes NST sets better than most.

Stillen has the ring too

01-21-2013, 03:24 PM	#61 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	Just a FYI, the DE motors use the same crank as ours, on an old Maxima DE of all engines, so it just adds to my skepticism Link of the pic: 3rd gen VQ35DE Full ECU Swap Progress Thread - Maxima Forums __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

01-21-2013, 03:32 PM	#64 (permalink)
edub370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: KCMO Posts: 3,458 Drives: 09 370z S/T 6MT Rep Power: 20	even without being an engineer, i know what happens when u mate 2 different metals with 2 melting/annealing points. but hey, i'll go ahead and stop mentioning it __________________ 09 370Z ST 6MT//Injen CAI//Greddy CBE//TP//TSW's//Swifts//Stillen lip//Whiteline sways 326whp/268tq

01-21-2013, 03:47 PM	#66 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	How about this Red, you prove me wrong, I know how you love to try, so go ahead. I'm waiting. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

01-21-2013, 04:22 PM	#67 (permalink)
XwChriswX WFLYIDNNE Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: In The Fastlane Posts: 50,648 Drives: 02 GDB WRX Rep Power: 452	Just to add some thought to those discussing AL melting points... For the NST Pulley: From: NST (NonStopTuning) 370Z VQ37HR Pulley Kit Review w/ Dyno Charts OP There is a Steel sleeve around the internal part of the pulley. Won't that prevent some of the fusing you guys are projecting as a potential fail point? Not trolling, this is what I was told that makes NST sets better than most. DEpointfive0 likes this. __________________ Bonnie - Stage 2, Audio build coming this fall! R.I.P. Abby 3/29/10 - 3/30/14

01-21-2013, 04:27 PM	#69 (permalink)
edub370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: KCMO Posts: 3,458 Drives: 09 370z S/T 6MT Rep Power: 20	The steel sleeve is for just that reason companies that don't put that much thought into this issue will have an issue with the metals fusing as stated above. And no i dont have an exact time from on how long this takes to occur with all the given controversy as it is, WHY even risk it to gain a neglegable amount of power?? why risk it? __________________ 09 370Z ST 6MT//Injen CAI//Greddy CBE//TP//TSW's//Swifts//Stillen lip//Whiteline sways 326whp/268tq Last edited by edub370; 01-21-2013 at 04:30 PM.

01-21-2013, 03:31 PM	#63 (permalink)
DEpointfive0 Premium Member Bitches Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: SoCal Posts: 14,824 Drives: a lot Rep Power: 17151	Guys, I doubt either of us are actually ássholes, I bet this thread will get locked Please lets take a step back, smoke a cigarette, pop a pill, whatever we need to do to relax, lol AT THE END OF THE DAY, NONE OF US ARE ENGINEERS WHO WORKED ON THIS MOTOR OP, AND TO ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS TO INSTALL A LIGHTWEIGHT/UD PULLEY, ITSTALL IT AT YOUR OWN RISK! We have provided enough data and opinions and such to last a lifetime, and to anyone thinking about it, use google, lol

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