M370 with High flow mods.
 

This is a repost of the final results. I will keep all existing information so you can follow the thread feedback and analysis.

I just got back from the shop after about an hour and a half of tuning. And here is the verdict...

The M370 intake manifold made more power than the stock manifold from 2,000 rpm all the way to 7,000 rpm. After 7,000 rpm, it was neck and neck. I just sold that damn manifold too... Guess I'll be getting another one down the road.

What all this doesn't explain is how I lost 10whp and tq after a tune from 30 march till now. I'm thinking there is something else that's going on with this car. I'm not sure if it's the sensor, or spark plugs, or both. Posted below are the dyno graphs.

Keep in mind my tuned numbers are lower than my untuned numbers. It's a$$ backwards I know, I'm trying to figure out why.

Information on the graphs isat the top of the image (Fixed Graphs)

1st graph is the stock manifold and the M370 (Blue is M370)
http://www.the370z.com/attachments/i...ck-vs-m370.jpg

2nd graph is the same but displaying AFR's (Red is M370)
http://www.the370z.com/attachments/i...s-m370-afr.jpg

3rd graph is Stock tuned and stock untuned results (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)
http://www.the370z.com/attachments/i...tock-tuned.jpg

4th graph is the same but showing AFR's (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)
http://www.the370z.com/attachments/i...ntuned-afr.jpg

5th graph is the M370 manifold tuned and untuned (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)
http://www.the370z.com/attachments/i...70-untuned.jpg

6th graph is the same but showing AFR's (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)
http://www.the370z.com/attachments/i...ntuned-afr.jpg

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Original Post

I decided to make this seperate from my old thread (http://www.the370z.com/intake-exhaus...h-hfc-cbe.html)on my mods as I think this is pretty relevant and stand out.I finally tuned my car and as many of you have known, Ive been having some irritations with it. After months of trying to track down whats causing me to run super rich and rob power, I tracked it down to a bad precat O2 sensor. I replaced it last week and with it working again, it was possible to tune.So I went to the shop (Force Fed Racing in Las Vegas) around midnight with a 6 pack of Sam Adams Summer Ale, a couple laptops, and my Uprev tuner cable.

Mods on my vehicle are on my sig, but I'll list them here: I have PPE LTH's, a Motordyne XYZ Y pipe with a high flow catalytic converter, Tanabe Medallion exhaust, NST crank and alternator pulleys, AEM cold air intake with ETI module, and AE Performance Oil cooler. My oil temps never broke 185 during the runs I might add...

I strapped on the rollers (Dynojet) around 1:30 in the morning after the previous car unstrapped and cleaned his puddle of transmission fluid he left. After Johnny (Shop Co-owner) got familiar with the software, we did a baseline. 280whp and 225 lbft tq. WTF. It was running 11:5 1 AFR's through the run. If you look at my sig below, that's what the car made with the stock manifold and untuned. Untuned, AFR's were in the low to mid 13's most of the run. After about two hours of tuning, we added a couple points of fuel between 3200 and 3600 rpm and one point at 4k rpm because it was too lean, We took fuel out over 5k rpm, and reduced timing by 3 degrees. AFR's were around 13.3-13.4 throughout most of the run and the power curve smoothed out. We were able to get power back up to 304 whp and 243 lb ft tq.

Compared to my last run, I was able to get most of the torque back, but I'm missing a lot of power on the top end. After 5k rpm, I'm not making as much as I did with the stock manifold. This leads me to believe that the stock manifold is better than the M370 when full bolt on's are on the vehicle. Both the intakes and headers really opened up power after 6k rpm and the M370 is the limiting factor. For a near stock vehicle, I see no issues with the M370, but for my car, I did not see a bump in midrange power and I saw a dramatic loss up top when compared to the stock manifold. I'll be removing the M370 and replacing the stock manifold soon and I'll be back on the rollers to retune the vehicle with the old manifold.

I'm not here to bash on Motordyne's products, I really like their stuff, but the M370 did not work for me. I was a M370 faithful and stood by in it's defense until I could prove whether it worked for me or not. I'm disappointed in the results, but the dyno doesn't lie. All my runs have been on the same dyno since baseline. The only differences is temperature. It was about 85 degrees last night. I'm at work and don't have the dyno run on me, I'll post when I get home. Maybe someone might be able to explain the significant power difference until then.

on a side note look at my last dyno test * HR vs VHR intake manifold within an hour ,same weather , same day.**
you can see on my case , the HR intake is quite superior minus some loss over 7200 rpm went up to 7700rpm

ok its not the one from Motordyne as I did the swap and modified the IM myself but they are the same exact part.
http://www.the370z.com/members/megan...e-manifold.jpg

the car has a bigger CAI & MAF Tube
bigger TB by 2.5mm
NST lightweight crank pulley
PPE steped long tube headers
custom X-pipe and straight flow muffler. ( 2.5'' exhaust )

I did a mistake on the picture when I wrote down which was the VHr and HR dyno number...

VHR = 329whp
HR = avrg of 327whp of the 3 runs.

I took mine off bc it took 10 WHP from top end. The mid range gain was there but only for a smaller window when compared to when I was untuned.

I've uploaded my dyno's. I have my baseline, untuned with stock manifold (316 whp), and tuned with M370 manifold (304 whp).

I'm losing more than 14 whp considering that it's tuned and still that far off. Tomorrow, I'll be replacing the manifold and retuning. So I'll post another update when that occurs.

I'll get the files and combine the graphs as well. It should make it much easier to compare.

I haven't keep up with the the product so correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't the M370 help with mid range numbers! Also I noticed many of you get trap in the peak numbers game! Been in your shoes so I know the fustration with parts and harmony! Either way from the looks of it, and my past experience...tuning is key!

Erkk..that's quite surprising..fortunately i found this thread before i'm gonna pull the trigger..thanks for the info mate!

mine works great for me. i gained tones of bottom mid and lost no top end at all.
Made a big difference in he 1/4 mile runs.

Z

I hope that you bring your car to the Z drag day this sept. at St thomas .
I would like to run you to see how your set up runs against mine.

Z

I would love to, but ill be heading back to Afghanistan in Sep. I'm not the best 1/4 driver, but I'm hoping to take it back to the track before I leave. It's just really hot here and higher in elevation. Best i ran was 13.9 at 102, and my 60' was 2.2 (not great).

What mods are you running with the M370? I'm assuming you have gears with that time.

When will you do the re-dyno?
I'm wondering if you have some other variable affecting your results. That loss of 100HP sounds really off. Too much to be even a bad install because the primary thing to a bad install is a air leak. And they affect idle exponentially more than WOT.

It's hard to imagine a air leak that would cause a loss of WOT 100HP without making it impossible for the engine to idle or even start up.

The sooner you can get the car back on the dyno with the stock manifold, the better. Just in case there is something else happening that isn't currently accounted for.

100HP is just too much to be a air leak alone.

Where are you located at . in Ont.
we can get together one night

Z

I have that problem fixed and brought me up to 300 whp. But its still far off from my numbers with the stock intake. I know a lot of guys here make good power with minimal loss on the top end, but I'm not seeing any gains that were better than the stock manifold anywhere in my powerband. I really want the manifold to work, but I'm not seeing benefits. So as a last ditch effort, I'm putting the stock one on, retuning and re-dynoing to validate my results with a more recent dyno. I'll email you the files after. I'll be on the rollers around 1:00am pac time.

BTW I live in Las Vegas.

I'll wait to see your number with stock manifold . The HR manifold work fine with me , I have 3G stillen intake , stock cats and berk exhaust . Im planning to add ART test pipe then I'll have to re-tune my car to see the final result .

Dyno rescheduled for next week. Too tired to stay up all night doing the manifold swap and tuning.

Edit: Reinstalled stock manifold in my garage. Butt dyno says there is a minor improvement, but it was 110 degrees outside and the tune is with the M370. I'll be scheduling early next week for retuning. I also learned I'm not a great wrench turner... But good enough to do this myself.

If at all possible. Ideally. Do the swap while on the dyno for the best comparison.

I already did the swap, each time I get it tuned, I clear any learned fuel settings. Weather has been 1-2 degrees difference and I'm still on the same gas tank. It should be 99% the same. After putting the stock manifold back on, I noticed more rasp and drone. The exhaust pitch is slightly higher as well. I also do not hear the headers scavange on downshfts anymore, or maybe not as clearly than with the M370.

What did you find out with the stock manifold?

Got rescheduled for Saturday evening. Shop has an anal retentive customer who needed an engine swap done in a daily driver. I can say that my gas mileage has gone up at least 15% for some reason.

May be able to sneak in tonight. I'll let you all know.

I just got back from the shop after about an hour and a half of tuning. And here is the verdict...

The M370 intake manifold made more power than the stock manifold from 2,000 rpm all the way to 7,000 rpm. After 7,000 rpm, it was neck and neck. I just sold that damn manifold too... Guess I'll be getting another one down the road.

What all this doesn't explain is how I lost 10whp and tq after a tune from 30 march till now. I'm thinking there is something else that's going on with this car. I'm not sure if it's the sensor, or spark plugs, or both. Posted below are the dyno graphs.

Keep in mind my tuned numbers are lower than my untuned numbers. It's a$$ backwards I know, I'm trying to figure out why.

1st graph is the stock manifold and the M370 (Blue is M370)
2nd graph is the same but displaying AFR's (Red is M370)

3rd graph is Stock tuned and stock untuned results (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)
4th graph is the same but showing AFR's (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)

5th graph is the M370 manifold tuned and untuned (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)
6th graph is the same but showing AFR's (Blue is tuned, red is untuned)

I'm not really feeling the M370 with my Greddy setup. If you realy want to get mine, you can once I get my stocker back from Zerolift. Or you can trade me yours with a couple bux. Let me know man!

Sent via Tapatalk 2 on my D-Team G-Slate

You should really edit this info into the first post. Many might read the first few posts and make an unfair opinion of the M370 based on it.

Thanks for the tip, reposted results.
Fixed graphs on first post, I somehow jacked it up...

great thread,lots of good data here. nice job!

i myself have the m370 and think its worth it...im not tuned,but for everyday driving you definatley feel the difference. and from what i know it seems to respond better to a more stock z..which goes for any mod,but more so this one

For clarification. All untuned dyno comparisons to the tuned ones were not taken the same day as the tuned ones. I'm only showing the difference between them and the three month difference in power.

Thanks for taking time and effort to share this data.

Well, I think maybe the m370 needs resonated test pipe or HFC to give the best result.
Just my own thoughts .

I'd say the major difference is in the temps -- < 60 F* for earlier runs and > 100* F for later ones! Even with correction (and the CF's are huge!), it will not be able to compensate. You will still see massive differences in power output.

After reviewing all dynos and taking that into consideration, I think best power is factory IM + tune.

Yes The Motordyne intake picked up a little in the midrange, but I think not enough to warrant the loss up top. The headers are probably outflowing them, and costing power up top. They might work better with factory headers.

Also, keep in mind it will take 3-4 runs for the fuel trims and such to adjust to make sure you are hitting target AFR's. Timing may also fluctuate a bit before it stabilizes.

If you want to compare and contrast more definitively, do same day, factory tune with mods, 3 runs, 15-20 min cool down, flash tune to ECU, do another three runs. Keep note of oil temps (try to keep them around 200-210* F).

If you have any more drfs, pelase feel free to send them my way -- thanks again! :tiphat:

EDIT: Nope -- I'm wrong. The tuned M370 dyno is very comparable to the tuned OEM IM dyno, and it clearly out performs it in the midrange.

Just to make sure everyone understands, I'm running PPE LTH's and Motordyne's Y pipe with a HFC. This isn't a popular setup, but it should be very comparable to a TP's and Headers, with slight variations due to different manufacturer parts.

Sig also shows NST pulley's and AEM CAI.

So i've been following this thread for a few days now, since I've been considering this mod, and with all the graphs and going back and forth between the stock manifold and the M370, I got a little confused. So what happen is that when you added the M370 you lost some top end power after the 7k rpm range? but then later down the road you ended up gaining more with it? My concern is more for the lower mid range power bieng that this is my DD and I most likely wont hit those high RPM's at least not for everyday use. Overall would you say you like it and would it work for my situation. I have stillen gen 3's and FI HFC's and CBE should be here this month.

I originally thought I was seeing very little to no improvement with the manifold. After tuning both the stock and the M370, I found that I only lost 2whp way up top between 7200 and 7500 with the M370, but gained as much as 10 lb ft of torque everywhere else. With that being said, I absolutely recommend the M370 manifold.

Glad to know bout that, thanks man! :tiphat::tup:

I'm wrong and recant.

The M370 clearly out performs the factory IM throughout most of the rev range.

These dynos are under same conditions, so very comparable (although massively high CF!)

Yeah, I'd say it's worth switching back to it :tup:

http://www.the370z.com/members/jordo...vs-m370-im.jpg

well this is a nice to see. with so many ppl bashing it, its nice to see actual data that shows its worth the money :)

I've still got mine on, it's been on for many months, and I'm happy with it overall.

I think all of the results you have to take with a little grain of salt. I don't know that anyone's every done a *perfect* comparison (same day/dyno/conditions, both manifolds, and each optimally tuned with different ECU settings), and even then we'd need such a perfect comparison for every set of supporting mods to boot :)

The general trend of the evidence we have, though, is it helps increase torque area under the curve all through the middle. That counts for a lot more than some tiny fraction of power at the very peak of the RPM range (where you're unlikely to usefully be for more than a split second in real conditions).

Actually, the two runs I posted are about as close as you can get in ambient conditions. Only oil temp and IAT's are unknown. Both runs are in same gear too.

Oil temps were between 180 and 185 during both runs. IAT's should be identical. Industrial fan was blowing through the front bumper and two shop fans blowing exhaust out the door.

Oh I missed that, good job :) You did run a separate optimized tune for each right?

Yes. And this is on a full bolt on vehicle. The gains are consistent no matter the extent of mods. At least when comparing NA.

It seems most people often look only at the peak HP gains when deciding whether a mod was effective, its really about the total area under the curve. More area = More power. Sacrificing 5 peak HP up top for more usable mid-range power is a win to me. The M370 looks like a great mod and I'll likely pull the trigger on it soon. Thanks for putting up your info.