Stillen HFC vs. BERK HFC

semtex · 04-17-2009, 10:21 AM

Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road.

Now, take from that what you will. I don't know if it's the ECU 'learning' one's driving habits or what, but clearly something is adjusting to the way each vehicle is regularly driven. Also, I find your response to NizmoZ somewhat confusing. You wrote: "the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before." Umm...doesn't your second sentence contradict the first? You begin by stating that the car just hasn't learned what the engine needs, then you state that once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding what you wrote.

In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that -- no disrespect to your resume intended -- but as far as I'm concerned, real life experience trumps all the certifications and courses in the world. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. from MIT and another one from Harvard. If your courses say xyz should function one way but real life empirical experience shows that it functions a different way, I'm going with the latter, not the former. In short, one should judge theory by empirical evidence/experience, not the other way around. That's common sense, right? Except I see people lose sight of this simple principle all the time. Far too often, I'll listen to some big shot academic with multiple degrees argue that someone's evidence must be wrong because it doesn't conform to his/her academic theory. That's bass ackwards, man. If the evidence doesn't support the theory, it's the theory that needs to be re-examined. I listen to these academic types attack the evidence without even considering that maybe, just maybe, their theories aren't 100% perfect, sometimes even suggesting that the evidence is fabricated.

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 12:32 PM

Sorry man but my family has owned Nissans since the 70s. And all the Nissans since 95 have this type of ECU learning. The cars adapt to the driver. If you drive it easy, the car adjusts all the fuel/air trims to meet the best for those type of conditions for that driver. Once the driver or another one starts to drive the car and drives differently, the car will have to readjust itself again to make it optimal for that type of driving. So yes it does adapt to the driver. Let us know when you have actually tuned a ECU like Technosquare or UPREV then you might actually know how they work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse

Nope. your wrong bro. the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before. I dont want anyone to think im just full of hot air. I dont know everything, and im still only 27. But my acomplishments include.......

ASE certs---A6 (auto electrical) A8 (engine performance) L1 (advanced engine performance), BAR clean air car course class and test, BAR laws and regulations class and test, BAR update class '05, '07 and just finished '09 (and tests). Auto 101, intermidiate auto, advanced auto at local college (which is known to have the likes of people like ARMY drag team shoemacher mechanics). Three years of auto in high school. 2 years interning as a smog tech with the number 2 (tested) mentor in the state. 6 or 7 years as a smog tech and mechanic at the most honest shop. Most days I smog 20 to 30 cars every day by myself. I have taken countless factory training courses in ford chevy and chrystler. I have rebuilt motors by hand, tuned turbo hondas. AC delco has classes i have taken. I have done a lot in my short life span, but I dont know it all....like to think I do sometimes I guess. But I think im pretty good about admitting when im not sure.

Damn.....I know I have done more than that....I just woke up. ill be at work today and more will come to me. But thats off the top of my head.

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road.
'

Exactly what we have seen out of all the Nissans myself and my family has owned. I might have you beat man.

Gonna list them....below.

A good example is our 2001 Altima. My father drove that car for years. Everytime I got in it, felt like a dog, and weak and slow. Then my mom had to use it for a week. She also noticed it it was slow at first. But she has a lead foot. It woke up after about 2 days of driving and really felt peppy. I then drove it after she did and agreed with her that it was really peppy. Nothing like it was before. The 2003 Altima was a 4 banger. It felt like a V6 because of the way she drove it and when the dealer had it they couldn't believe how peppy and strong it was for a 4 banger out of the rest of the ones they have driven.

Again I am going to say this. The ECU learns from the person driving and makes changes. Jesse, this is the way Nissan's work. I can't say for other manufactures but they also might be similar.

1978 Datsun B210
1991 Sentra SE-R
1987 200SX XE
1992 Sentra SE-R
1997 Quest
1995 Maxima SE
1998 Maxima SE
2000 Maxima SE
2001 Sentra SE
2001 Altima
2003 Altima
2001 Maxima SE
2003 Pathfinder LE
2004 Titan
2004 G35
2005 G35
2007 350Z Current
2009 Murano Current

wstar · 04-17-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse

Let me make it easier to understand.

FACT
Every car sold in america has to be built to federal EPA or California standards. Says so under your hood on your BAR label.

If the computer were to re-program to your driving habits this would infringe on what the government wants to see happen with your vehicle. Computer is there not to satisfy the driver, its to satisfy the government.

The EPA and California standards only limit emissions. There's a *lot* of room for different ECU-controlled engine behavior within those limits, and there's no logical reason that an EPA/CARB-compliant car can't adapt its maps to the driver, as well as to the local weather and the aging and deterioration of its own components.

semtex · 04-17-2009, 03:35 PM

I'm beginning to think we're arguing over semantics here. Take this statement, for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse

The reason your car was a dog untill your mom drove it is because when your mom drove it hard it gave the computer a chance to finnally see what the engine needed and conformed accordingly better every time it was driven like that.

Okay, to me, that's just another way of saying that the car adapted! Think about it. To paraphrase Jesse, if the car is driven around by slowpoke grandpa Magoo all the time, the engine isn't going to see what it needs and it'll perform like a dog. When grandpa Magoo's hot daughter with a lead foot borrows the car for a week and drives it hard, the computer finally has a chance to see what it needs and conforms (aka adapts) accordingly. Right?

Well what do you think the process of conforming is? It's just another word for adaptation, is it not? If I conform to my environment, isn't that the same thing as adapting to my environment?

I mean, am I crazy? Or are we all actually saying the same thing but just using different words?

wstar · 04-17-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I mean, am I crazy?

Yes

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 04:12 PM

Exactly. Good job man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

I'm beginning to think we're arguing over semantics here. Take this statement, for example:

Okay, to me, that's just another way of saying that the car adapted! Think about it. To paraphrase Jesse, if the car is driven around by slowpoke grandpa Magoo all the time, the engine isn't going to see what it needs and it'll perform like a dog. When grandpa Magoo's hot daughter with a lead foot borrows the car for a week and drives it hard, the computer finally has a chance to see what it needs and conforms (aka adapts) accordingly. Right?

Well what do you think the process of conforming is? It's just another word for adaptation, is it not? If I conform to my environment, isn't that the same thing as adapting to my environment?

I mean, am I crazy? Or are we all actually saying the same thing but just using different words?

GeneralZod · 04-17-2009, 05:23 PM

I just finished reading this thread from page 1 and Semtex seems to have hit it on the head, it seems like you guys are basically saying the same things but using slightly different words and debating on the differing paths the 'tech' takes to get there.

BalanBro · 04-17-2009, 09:37 PM

When you are running in closed loop conditions (partial throttle, low engine speeds) where the car is getting feedback from the o2 sensor, the car will always be making adjustments for the given demands. I suppose in this scenario, it may seem like the car is learning since it is "adapting", but all it really is doing is trying to get close to 14.7 AFR to conform to the ideal stoichiometric fuel burning ratio.

Look closely at what Jesse is saying. It is subtly different. The car is not learning your driving habits. It is looking at whats going on in realtime and trying to figure out the answer to, "okay, now what do I need to do to get back to an optimum afr becase my O2 sensor is showing that I am currently injecting too much/little fuel."

Under WOT/high load (open loop) however, the car is going to disregard the o2/AFR sensors and base tuning off a predetermined map. The car will look at 1)engine rpm and 2) MAF output to obtain a load value, and basically use these values in a fuel table to look up the factory preprogrammed fuel injection duration, and a timing table to look up preprogrammed ignition timing. These maps are static and do not change, unless you were to go in and physically modify the tables.

Late 90's/early 2000 nissan OBDII ecu's had the tables stored in read only memory and could not be altered whatsoever. Aftermarket tuning solutions for these cars had to utilize daughterboards which house external roms that the end used could use to make their own map and "burn" to the rom. Once again, this data cannot be altered by the ECU itself.

Now I can't say I know what is going on for the latest nissan ecu's, but I think the only real difference is the type of memory used which allows for the data to be flashed by some of these aftermarket tuners.

RCZ · 04-17-2009, 10:09 PM

Yup same thing diffrent wording. The word "learn" can be understood as many different things when talking about an ECU...

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BalanBro

When you are running in closed loop conditions (partial throttle, low engine speeds) where the car is getting feedback from the o2 sensor, the car will always be making adjustments for the given demands. I suppose in this scenario, it may seem like the car is learning since it is "adapting", but all it really is doing is trying to get close to 14.7 AFR to conform to the ideal stoichiometric fuel burning ratio.

Look closely at what Jesse is saying. It is subtly different. The car is not learning your driving habits. It is looking at whats going on in realtime and trying to figure out the answer to, "okay, now what do I need to do to get back to an optimum afr becase my O2 sensor is showing that I am currently injecting too much/little fuel."

Under WOT/high load (open loop) however, the car is going to disregard the o2/AFR sensors and base tuning off a predetermined map. The car will look at 1)engine rpm and 2) MAF output to obtain a load value, and basically use these values in a fuel table to look up the factory preprogrammed fuel injection duration, and a timing table to look up preprogrammed ignition timing. These maps are static and do not change, unless you were to go in and physically modify the tables.

Late 90's/early 2000 nissan OBDII ecu's had the tables stored in read only memory and could not be altered whatsoever. Aftermarket tuning solutions for these cars had to utilize daughterboards which house external roms that the end used could use to make their own map and "burn" to the rom. Once again, this data cannot be altered by the ECU itself.

Now I can't say I know what is going on for the latest nissan ecu's, but I think the only real difference is the type of memory used which allows for the data to be flashed by some of these aftermarket tuners.

How do you think UPREV just tunes the stock ECU itself? 2003+ ECUs. Other ECUs before that can be tuned with NISTune. No add on modules are required.

LOL

NIZMOZ · 04-17-2009, 10:29 PM

I am done. I trust what the ECU tuners say not someone that just showed up in this topic.

355890 · 04-17-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road.

Now, take from that what you will. I don't know if it's the ECU 'learning' one's driving habits or what, but clearly something is adjusting to the way each vehicle is regularly driven. Also, I find your response to NizmoZ somewhat confusing. You wrote: "the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before." Umm...doesn't your second sentence contradict the first? You begin by stating that the car just hasn't learned what the engine needs, then you state that once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding what you wrote.

In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that -- no disrespect to your resume intended -- but as far as I'm concerned, real life experience trumps all the certifications and courses in the world. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. from MIT and another one from Harvard. If your courses say xyz should function one way but real life empirical experience shows that it functions a different way, I'm going with the latter, not the former. In short, one should judge theory by empirical evidence/experience, not the other way around. That's common sense, right? Except I see people lose sight of this simple principle all the time. Far too often, I'll listen to some big shot academic with multiple degrees argue that someone's evidence must be wrong because it doesn't conform to his/her academic theory. That's bass ackwards, man. If the evidence doesn't support the theory, it's the theory that needs to be re-examined. I listen to these academic types attack the evidence without even considering that maybe, just maybe, their theories aren't 100% perfect, sometimes even suggesting that the evidence is fabricated.

Won't Cobb Tuning remap fix this issue when released and with that said won't this overwrite really take the condom off this whole issue.

Oh! and that's not theory. it's Fact.

But love your comments....

BalanBro · 04-17-2009, 10:31 PM

Yes and if you read the next sentence, I alluded to this.

ZforMe · 04-18-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZforMe?

I just read on another thread that BERK is about to design their own cat-back exhaust. I guess I'll be waiting just a bit longer to see how that comes out. If it fairs nearly as well as the Stillen exhaust, I may be going the BERK route for exhaust (I don't plan on doing headers in either case).

I'm interested to find out more about what this guy said. BERK any new details???

04-17-2009, 10:21 AM	#121 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 54 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 32	Well, all I will say is this, Jesse. I'm on my 12th Nissan now, and my parents are also Nissan loyalists. At various points over the past 15 years, we've owned the same cars at the same time. Whenever this has happened, I've noticed differences between our cars that quite frankly boggle my mind. For example, at one point they owned a Pathfinder and my wife had the exact same model. When I drove their Pathfinder the first thing out of my mouth was 'What's wrong with your Pathfinder??' I mean, the thing was positively anemic. I actually popped the hood open to verify that it had the same engine it was so bad. Then I checked to see if they had something obstructing the gas pedal! That thing was awful to drive! Well, guess what? My wife and I have lead foots; my parents drive like grannies. My parents are the type of people I refer to as 'pylon-imitators' when they're on the road. Now, take from that what you will. I don't know if it's the ECU 'learning' one's driving habits or what, but clearly something is adjusting to the way each vehicle is regularly driven. Also, I find your response to NizmoZ somewhat confusing. You wrote: "the car just has not learned what the engine needs at those conditions. once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs and eventually feels better than before." Umm...doesn't your second sentence contradict the first? You begin by stating that the car just hasn't learned what the engine needs, then you state that once you put the engine in those conditions it learns what it needs. I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding what you wrote. In any case, the point I'm trying to make here is that -- no disrespect to your resume intended -- but as far as I'm concerned, real life experience trumps all the certifications and courses in the world. I don't care if you have a Ph.D. from MIT and another one from Harvard. If your courses say xyz should function one way but real life empirical experience shows that it functions a different way, I'm going with the latter, not the former. In short, one should judge theory by empirical evidence/experience, not the other way around. That's common sense, right? Except I see people lose sight of this simple principle all the time. Far too often, I'll listen to some big shot academic with multiple degrees argue that someone's evidence must be wrong because it doesn't conform to his/her academic theory. That's bass ackwards, man. If the evidence doesn't support the theory, it's the theory that needs to be re-examined. I listen to these academic types attack the evidence without even considering that maybe, just maybe, their theories aren't 100% perfect, sometimes even suggesting that the evidence is fabricated. __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

04-17-2009, 09:37 PM	#129 (permalink)
BalanBro Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 318 Drives: 40th Anniv. 370Z Rep Power: 1111	When you are running in closed loop conditions (partial throttle, low engine speeds) where the car is getting feedback from the o2 sensor, the car will always be making adjustments for the given demands. I suppose in this scenario, it may seem like the car is learning since it is "adapting", but all it really is doing is trying to get close to 14.7 AFR to conform to the ideal stoichiometric fuel burning ratio. Look closely at what Jesse is saying. It is subtly different. The car is not learning your driving habits. It is looking at whats going on in realtime and trying to figure out the answer to, "okay, now what do I need to do to get back to an optimum afr becase my O2 sensor is showing that I am currently injecting too much/little fuel." Under WOT/high load (open loop) however, the car is going to disregard the o2/AFR sensors and base tuning off a predetermined map. The car will look at 1)engine rpm and 2) MAF output to obtain a load value, and basically use these values in a fuel table to look up the factory preprogrammed fuel injection duration, and a timing table to look up preprogrammed ignition timing. These maps are static and do not change, unless you were to go in and physically modify the tables. Late 90's/early 2000 nissan OBDII ecu's had the tables stored in read only memory and could not be altered whatsoever. Aftermarket tuning solutions for these cars had to utilize daughterboards which house external roms that the end used could use to make their own map and "burn" to the rom. Once again, this data cannot be altered by the ECU itself. Now I can't say I know what is going on for the latest nissan ecu's, but I think the only real difference is the type of memory used which allows for the data to be flashed by some of these aftermarket tuners. Last edited by BalanBro; 04-17-2009 at 10:12 PM.

04-17-2009, 10:29 PM	#132 (permalink)
NIZMOZ Track Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 634 Drives: 07 NISMO 350Z SA M6 Rep Power: 491	I am done. I trust what the ECU tuners say not someone that just showed up in this topic. __________________ SOLD: 2007 NISMO 350Z #0044 Silver Alloy New DD: 2010 Titan Pro4X CC

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04-17-2009, 05:23 PM	#128 (permalink)
GeneralZod Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 8 Drives: 1995 240 Rep Power: 16	I just finished reading this thread from page 1 and Semtex seems to have hit it on the head, it seems like you guys are basically saying the same things but using slightly different words and debating on the differing paths the 'tech' takes to get there.

04-17-2009, 10:09 PM	#130 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	Yup same thing diffrent wording. The word "learn" can be understood as many different things when talking about an ECU...

04-17-2009, 10:31 PM	#134 (permalink)
BalanBro Enthusiast Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 318 Drives: 40th Anniv. 370Z Rep Power: 1111	Yes and if you read the next sentence, I alluded to this.