Exhaust Poll

frost · 10-17-2013, 12:26 AM

This discussion is absolutely painful. Go to bed, you're all cranky.

chii370 · 10-17-2013, 12:41 AM

found this. learned a lot. supports pretty much what I already said, but did it in less of a stubborn ******* way. Exhaust noises and defining rasp. - MY350Z.COM Forums

chose the next closest thing to a 370 thats not a 370, its little bro 350. and dont say G...... in my mind those dont exist.

synolimit · 10-17-2013, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

no idea what Helmholtz is, was just speaking from a general standpoint. wasnt arguing with you, was arguing with shovelman. but it must be said that both parties are right on various points. Im saying this through a mostly lifetime of experience of being involved with building cars since i was old enough for my dad to force his mechanical way of life on me. not just from 100 dyno runs with a Z. these principles apply to every car, its science/physics as we have both stated. If you wanna make a useless million HP noisebox go right ahead, by all means its your right to do so. But passing on your dumbfuck logic to people who DONT understand the science behind it will cause people to follow in your tracks unknowingly and be disappointing in the results for their daily driving car. theres a difference between doing things the right way, and doing things the 1% way that also just so happens to work. dont know about you, but im humble enough to say i learned something today.

Just google. It's also whats welded to the art motordyne test pipes, the guy you quoted...tony.

forza370z · 10-17-2013, 01:50 AM

Wow... Absolutely some good readings here!! I tend to agree with synolimit's theory on Helmholtz resonators. I thought they are mainly used to cancel out the drone, but this "restore air pressure" thing totally makes sense to me.

And that's why it makes the HKS Hi Power THE best exhaust out there because it has Helmholtz resonators!

JK JK...

I also agree with Chii on the exhaust piping diameter theory. The bigger piping and less restrictive exhaust systems aren't always good for NA cars. It's not like the bigger the better. It has a limit. I learned this in a hard way.

2.5 inch piping is close to the optimal for the NA setup on our car.

Sh0velMan · 10-17-2013, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Well I have LTH also so I know what It sounds like. It was nothing but rasp as I'm sure yours is also. Reving a car doesn't count. I heard yours under load and my statement stands.

If you have rasp you're losing power, period. Read Chii post again. All that is from Tony at motordyne. Do you think tony makes more power with his ART pipes and CBE over straight pipes and other CBE because he lucky? No he's not lucky. He's smart and combated the rasp and drone with a proper setup using Helmholtz resonators which you don't have and I do. Guess what? I don't rasp or drone ever, and to boot because of the way a Helmholtz works with storing air pressure and acting as a vacuum when the flow has a gap in it, I bet I make more power than you too The fact that you're talking about back pressure automatically makes you unqualified for this conversation. You need to read more and learn.
.
PS your science is wrong because your source you got it from don't have an understanding and years after years people are just passing BS along and down the line.

Wow.

Okay guy.

Having a "vacuum" chamber hanging off your exhaust will improve scavenging, but also cause a flow inversion, so it's great for low to middle RPM range but does nothing positive for high rpm operation, which is all i care about.

Of course a vendor is going to say that their expensive new product is great in every way.

I can tell you right now, you don't make more power, but it doesn't matter. Bring your money down here and we'll set up on a mustang dyno back to back if you really want to 'bet' otherwise lets leave size out of this.

Fact is, you've bought one of the least engineered and cheapest produced exhausts, then butchered it up with extra tubing, then paired it with the lowest-flowing longtube headers available, and now are preaching to someone who has spent far longer in the search for power in this platform. I'm done with the subject, do what you want, I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

chii370 · 10-17-2013, 12:01 PM

so you proved my point. this is beneficial for you. but most of the Z community doesnt have their car at 7500 rpm all day long every day. im sure you would be very interested in race cams too "if it wasnt for vvel" as they completely destroy every day usefulness of a car in benefit to one very specific scenario, racing. the whole point of the argument was showing the science behind it for what is better OVERALL, not just for you you you.

and just to toss this out there, price doesnt matter. my ark was 1700. is it 1000 better than some of the cheaper exhausts? no. is the amuse 3000 better than my ark? no. it doesnt work that way. its not a ******* scale. yes their are engineering differences, but aside from build material, quality, pipe diameter, shape, bends, welds and so on they are all functionally the same. and no ones to say a MORE expensive model couldnt in fact be out performed by a less expensive one. thats a rich douchbags way of looking at things. just move your slider from one side of the bar to the next. lemme just buy all the most expensive parts and that = im the fastest best mechanic in the world. durp. I can see you do EXACTLY that, as you bought the nismo R tune intakes "twice the price means better". guess what, the stillins gen 3s are cheaper and they perform much better. so shut up. according to your logic they are not engineered as well. due to price.

Sh0velMan · 10-17-2013, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

so you proved my point. this is beneficial for you. but most of the Z community doesnt have their car at 7500 rpm all day long every day. im sure you would be very interested in race cams too "if it wasnt for vvel" as they completely destroy every day usefulness of a car in benefit to one very specific scenario, racing. the whole point of the argument was showing the science behind it for what is better OVERALL, not just for you you you.

and just to toss this out there, price doesnt matter. my ark was 1700. is it 1000 better than some of the cheaper exhausts? no. is the amuse 3000 better than my ark? no. it doesnt work that way. its not a ******* scale. yes their are engineering differences, but aside from build material, quality, pipe diameter, shape, bends, welds and so on they are all functionally the same. and no ones to say a MORE expensive model couldnt in fact be out performed by a less expensive one. thats a rich douchbags way of looking at things. just move your slider from one side of the bar to the next. lemme just buy all the most expensive parts and that = im the fastest best mechanic in the world. durp. I can see you do EXACTLY that, as you bought the nismo R tune intakes "twice the price means better". guess what, the stillins gen 3s are cheaper and they perform much better. so shut up. according to your logic they are not engineered as well. due to price.

Actually I have those intakes because they were sponsored to me by Nissan Motorsports North America, I paid well under what G3's run. (Less than half, actually) If I were buying intakes today, I'd be getting G3's.

Try again?

chii370 · 10-17-2013, 02:17 PM

shock. you do have some common sense. But it still goes against your own way of thinking in your blind charge for OMGZOR infinite HP. your willing to have an exhaust setup that sounds like rotten asshats for extra ponies, but not willing to change out something that would still give you more HP and NOT make the car sound worse lol. counter intuitive ftw.

Sh0velMan · 10-17-2013, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

shock. you do have some common sense. But it still goes against your own way of thinking in your blind charge for OMGZOR infinite HP. your willing to have an exhaust setup that sounds like rotten asshats for extra ponies, but not willing to change out something that would still give you more HP and NOT make the car sound worse lol. counter intuitive ftw.

Putting extraneous tubing on my exhaust won't get more power. Period.

I'm sorry you're so easily convinced by marking fluff, but if this worked, everyone would be doing it, including every racing team in every racing series the world over.

synolimit · 10-17-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh0velMan

Wow.

Okay guy.

Having a "vacuum" chamber hanging off your exhaust will improve scavenging, but also cause a flow inversion, so it's great for low to middle RPM range but does nothing positive for high rpm operation, which is all i care about.

Of course a vendor is going to say that their expensive new product is great in every way.

I can tell you right now, you don't make more power, but it doesn't matter. Bring your money down here and we'll set up on a mustang dyno back to back if you really want to 'bet' otherwise lets leave size out of this.

Fact is, you've bought one of the least engineered and cheapest produced exhausts, then butchered it up with extra tubing, then paired it with the lowest-flowing longtube headers available, and now are preaching to someone who has spent far longer in the search for power in this platform. I'm done with the subject, do what you want, I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

No ones in high rpm operation. Coming out of turns, down shifting etc you're in low and middle range where you need all the power you can get.

Actually I didn't read anything from a vender. and tony refuses to post his own testing. It's only customer dyno's and magazines that were curious about new and interesting looking projects so they tested also. Tony is some rocket scientist or something so I tend to believe a guy that knows what he's doing and then refuses to post results and tells buyers, "you post results so people believe you and don't think I'm lying or changing dyno graphs."

If I had a second car I'd totally ship my CBE to you!! You do 3 runs with yours, do 3 with mine with zero rasp and ill bet. I'm not trying to compare size, I'm simply trying to tell you about physics.

Lol and yeah that's all true about my products. Cause an exact copy of some one else's stuff is going to be so much worse than the original since it's an exact copy. You know what? Going to the dyno right now to show you a before and after eBay LTH with my CBE.

kfull · 10-17-2013, 03:01 PM

synolimit · 10-17-2013, 06:25 PM

Boom!!!!

As promised. stock header and cats with a muffler that bends into the mufflers then bends out to the tips vs garage line LTH (looks like a eBay obx header), my Helmholtz welded in at the x pipe and straight pipes.

No tune, still running rich! 13hp, 17tq peak, 18-19hp, 11-17tq mid range.

Chuck33079 · 10-17-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Boom!!!!

As promised. stock header and cats with a muffler that bends into the mufflers then bends out to the tips vs garage line LTH (looks like a eBay obx header), my Helmholtz welded in at the x pipe and straight pipes.

No tune, still running rich! 13hp, 17tq peak, 18-19hp, 11-17tq mid range.

Not bad gains. How much do you think you picked up with it being 20 degrees cooler on the second run? Also, what's with the dip at 5200rpm or so? it wasn't there on the stock run.

luigi90210 · 10-17-2013, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

This same thing annoys the hell out of me like those that are absolutely convinced that turbo/SC builds HAVE to have 3in exhaust with no cats, or HFC...... its NOT THAT ******* SIMPLE to just make things bigger with less restriction. please do the research, not trying to be a **** but ive heard this a million times already and almost everyone who says it dont even know why. ive even been kind enough to give you a huge hint. velocity.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you are partially wrong about bigger being worse on N/A and supercharged cars and you are completely wrong about how exhausts work on a turbo cars

N/A and supercharged cars: what you want with an exhaust is maximum scavenging, minimal exhaust back pressure, and the biggest possible exhaust size that will provide the most flow but wont cause the exhaust to cool before it leaves the tail pipe

what happens when people slap 4in exhausts on a N/A honda is that the exhaust gas cools half way through the pipe slowing down the velocity thus creating a restriction, but at the same time you dont want a 2in exhaust because it is too small and can cause a restriction

basically you want to find a good diameter sized pipe that not only allows the most flow, but one that will keep exhaust gases heated until it leaves the tail pipe

Turbo: bigger diameter is always better and the shorter the distance, the better the turbo will perform, exhaust doesnt work the same way on a turbo car as it does on N/A and supercharged vehicles, on a turbo car, the more flow, and the shorter the piping, the better the turbo will spool

turbos in a sense are exhaust restrictions, and the scavenging effect is more or less negated, you want to flow as much exhaust out of the turbine as quick as you can because the better the flow, the better the spool, and faster the spool, the faster you make max boost, and the faster your car goes. a popular mod for people to do on their turbo cars is an electric cutout on the downpipe so the turbo spools as quickly as possibly when racing, but when on the streets, you have a tame exhaust that is quiet

im not trying to start an argument here, just stating that you're not 100% correct about bigger being worse and the reasons that you are giving are incorrect(to a point again)

chii370 · 10-17-2013, 10:48 PM

jeez, thats not half bad. I would have never called THAT much. I have absolutely NO IDEA if I gained anything with my ark dts or not. never had the 13 dyno'd and havent tuned it since install. to be honest, i HOPE it does but i really dont give a ****. when its TT it wont matter anyway.

View Poll Results: Which exhaust do you have or recommend I get???
Stillen	34	14.29%
FI	108	45.38%
ARK	31	13.03%
Berk	30	12.61%
Invidia	35	14.71%
Voters: 238. You may not vote on this poll

10-17-2013, 01:50 AM	#124 (permalink)
forza370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: 403 Forbidden Posts: 2,512 Drives: 2009 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 19	Wow... Absolutely some good readings here!! I tend to agree with synolimit's theory on Helmholtz resonators. I thought they are mainly used to cancel out the drone, but this "restore air pressure" thing totally makes sense to me. And that's why it makes the HKS Hi Power THE best exhaust out there because it has Helmholtz resonators! JK JK... I also agree with Chii on the exhaust piping diameter theory. The bigger piping and less restrictive exhaust systems aren't always good for NA cars. It's not like the bigger the better. It has a limit. I learned this in a hard way. 2.5 inch piping is close to the optimal for the NA setup on our car. __________________ 09 PW 370z Nismo \| K&N Drop Ins \| HKS Hi Power \| Berk HFCs \| Work Meister S1 3P \| Project Kics R40 Neo Chrome Lug Nuts \| KW V1 \| SPC rear camber arms/toe bolts \| Southbend Stage 3 daily clutch \| Southband 19Ib Steel Flywheel \| ZSpeed CSC

10-17-2013, 12:01 PM	#126 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 16	so you proved my point. this is beneficial for you. but most of the Z community doesnt have their car at 7500 rpm all day long every day. im sure you would be very interested in race cams too "if it wasnt for vvel" as they completely destroy every day usefulness of a car in benefit to one very specific scenario, racing. the whole point of the argument was showing the science behind it for what is better OVERALL, not just for you you you. and just to toss this out there, price doesnt matter. my ark was 1700. is it 1000 better than some of the cheaper exhausts? no. is the amuse 3000 better than my ark? no. it doesnt work that way. its not a ******* scale. yes their are engineering differences, but aside from build material, quality, pipe diameter, shape, bends, welds and so on they are all functionally the same. and no ones to say a MORE expensive model couldnt in fact be out performed by a less expensive one. thats a rich douchbags way of looking at things. just move your slider from one side of the bar to the next. lemme just buy all the most expensive parts and that = im the fastest best mechanic in the world. durp. I can see you do EXACTLY that, as you bought the nismo R tune intakes "twice the price means better". guess what, the stillins gen 3s are cheaper and they perform much better. so shut up. according to your logic they are not engineered as well. due to price. Last edited by chii370; 10-17-2013 at 12:09 PM.

10-17-2013, 03:01 PM	#131 (permalink)
kfull Track Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 909 Drives: A lot Rep Power: 14	__________________ 2012 GM 6MT sports package \| FI non res cf exhaust \| K&N Drop Ins \| Viper 3303 security system w/ tilt sensor \| GTR start button \| 35% rear 45% side window tint \| Michelin PSS

10-17-2013, 06:25 PM	#132 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	Boom!!!! As promised. stock header and cats with a muffler that bends into the mufflers then bends out to the tips vs garage line LTH (looks like a eBay obx header), my Helmholtz welded in at the x pipe and straight pipes. No tune, still running rich! 13hp, 17tq peak, 18-19hp, 11-17tq mid range. luigi90210 likes this. __________________ 13 370z- Last edited by synolimit; 10-17-2013 at 06:31 PM.

10-17-2013, 12:41 AM	#122 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 16	found this. learned a lot. supports pretty much what I already said, but did it in less of a stubborn ******* way. Exhaust noises and defining rasp. - MY350Z.COM Forums chose the next closest thing to a 370 thats not a 370, its little bro 350. and dont say G...... in my mind those dont exist.

10-17-2013, 02:17 PM	#128 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 16	shock. you do have some common sense. But it still goes against your own way of thinking in your blind charge for OMGZOR infinite HP. your willing to have an exhaust setup that sounds like rotten asshats for extra ponies, but not willing to change out something that would still give you more HP and NOT make the car sound worse lol. counter intuitive ftw.

10-17-2013, 10:48 PM	#135 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 16	jeez, thats not half bad. I would have never called THAT much. I have absolutely NO IDEA if I gained anything with my ark dts or not. never had the 13 dyno'd and havent tuned it since install. to be honest, i HOPE it does but i really dont give a ****. when its TT it wont matter anyway. luigi90210 likes this.

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