Cold Air Intake HP Debate - Is it worth it ?

Nikkolai · 04-02-2011, 12:25 AM

The VQ37HR is not some magical engine. It has always been a small difference between a short ram vs a cold air anyway. In the end, forced induction is the key. (All motor setups are usually dominated by American cars, Hondas, and rotary engines)

TBOX · 04-02-2011, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikkolai

The VQ37HR is not some magical engine. It has always been a small difference between a short ram vs a cold air anyway. In the end, forced induction is the key. (All motor setups are usually dominated by American cars, Hondas, and rotary engines)

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say a Honda, an American motor or a rotary are superior NA builds?

A: name a Honda motor that is superior to any other motor for making power, hondas rely on weight and high revving motors but in reality compared to any other choice are a horrible option for power.
B: point me at a rotary NA build that makes power... The wankel was and is a failure. Don't mistake the brilliance of the handling of rx7s and rx8s and their power potential.
C: you don't mean American, you mean displacement (which is the typical route for American muscle cars) which will always make more power on an NA build

Jordo! · 04-02-2011, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitex

Yeah sorry... you wont be convincing me that your drop ins and maf tubes equal the gen3 HP gains.. Just isnt happening. Call me ignorant, cause often i am!

According to the available dyno data, the G3's make about 1.5% more whp on the average (i.e., about 4-5 whp on a dynojet) than the OEM airbox plus high flow panel filters plus smooth intake tubes.

My guess is that the small difference is due in part to the marginally better flow dynamics of cone filters; the rest may simply be due to leaning out the mixture via a small, but stable, misread on the MAF sensors, for example due to a variation in the diameter or orientation of the piping.

With tuning, the difference between them should be even less if that's the case, as you would simply set the mixture where you want it on both types of set-ups, rather than relying on mechancially induced effects.

Explain to me your theory of why the G3 should be vastly superior.

Nikkolai · 04-02-2011, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBOX

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say a Honda, an American motor or a rotary are superior NA builds?

A: name a Honda motor that is superior to any other motor for making power, hondas rely on weight and high revving motors but in reality compared to any other choice are a horrible option for power.
B: point me at a rotary NA build that makes power... The wankel was and is a failure. Don't mistake the brilliance of the handling of rx7s and rx8s and their power potential.
C: you don't mean American, you mean displacement (which is the typical route for American muscle cars) which will always make more power on an NA build

My statements are all based on after market parts and builds that have been done over the years. I am not sure about the rotary though, since all I have seen are 4 rotor builds and a naturally aspirated build done by RE Amemiya that output 400whp. I know that the Nismo 380RS is rated at 380hp naturally aspirated but I am not sure if many people go with the n/a route.

jnaut · 04-02-2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBOX

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say a Honda, an American motor or a rotary are superior NA builds?

A: name a Honda motor that is superior to any other motor for making power, hondas rely on weight and high revving motors but in reality compared to any other choice are a horrible option for power.
B: point me at a rotary NA build that makes power... The wankel was and is a failure. Don't mistake the brilliance of the handling of rx7s and rx8s and their power potential.
C: you don't mean American, you mean displacement (which is the typical route for American muscle cars) which will always make more power on an NA build

honda s2000k over 100hp per liter n/a . nissan cant touch this. period

TBOX · 04-02-2011, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnaut

honda s2000k over 100hp per liter n/a . nissan cant touch this. period

Yes hp/liter s2000 and even them rotary potaoes are some of the top contenders, but I wouldnt consider them the top NA cars. No matter, we're derailing.

ProfessorDave · 04-02-2011, 11:39 AM

Based on all that I've read, it seems that you get the biggest boost from your first intake/exhaust mod. After that, the gains are in smaller increments. So, since you have the Stillen CBE (which is a very nice sounding exhaust, BTW, with proven gains), you won't as much in the way of gains from intake (unless you get a tune).

I agree with other comments that the OEM intake is well designed. I went with K&N drop-ins, and like the combo with my aftermarket exhaust.

birdmanx1 · 04-02-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfessorDave

Based on all that I've read, it seems that you get the biggest boost from your first intake/exhaust mod. After that, the gains are in smaller increments. So, since you have the Stillen CBE (which is a very nice sounding exhaust, BTW, with proven gains), you won't as much in the way of gains from intake (unless you get a tune).

I agree with other comments that the OEM intake is well designed. I went with K&N drop-ins, and like the combo with my aftermarket exhaust.

Jordo! · 04-02-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProfessorDave

Based on all that I've read, it seems that you get the biggest boost from your first intake/exhaust mod. After that, the gains are in smaller increments. So, since you have the Stillen CBE (which is a very nice sounding exhaust, BTW, with proven gains), you won't as much in the way of gains from intake (unless you get a tune).

I agree with other comments that the OEM intake is well designed. I went with K&N drop-ins, and like the combo with my aftermarket exhaust.

For the most part that does indeed seem to be true -- probably sucessive changes result in diminishing returns as you get closer to maximum VE for the engine NA.

BLM · 04-03-2011, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnaut

honda s2000k over 100hp per liter n/a . nissan cant touch this. period

Actually, with an exhaust swap and a tune you'd be pretty close to 370 bhp and though the 120 HP/liter is impressive on the s2k you sacrifice a lot in terms of low-mid range power with a high revving motor like that.

Red__Zed · 04-03-2011, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBOX

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say a Honda, an American motor or a rotary are superior NA builds?

A: name a Honda motor that is superior to any other motor for making power, hondas rely on weight and high revving motors but in reality compared to any other choice are a horrible option for power.
B: point me at a rotary NA build that makes power... The wankel was and is a failure. Don't mistake the brilliance of the handling of rx7s and rx8s and their power potential.
C: you don't mean American, you mean displacement (which is the typical route for American muscle cars) which will always make more power on an NA build

I've heard the F20 and F22C are pretty solid at making power (only through rumors of course) and the K series is also pretty beastly as well. I've seen plenty of guys laying 250whp+ out of a 2.0 with just bolt-ons.

Jordo! · 04-03-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLM

Actually, with an exhaust swap and a tune you'd be pretty close to 370 bhp and though the 120 HP/liter is impressive on the s2k you sacrifice a lot in terms of low-mid range power with a high revving motor like that.

Yep. A fully bolted on tuned Z will definitely be there at the crank, espcially if we use ps units, which are a few % higher than hp units.

VVEL tuning, I predict, will be the key to really getting a NA motor to wake up tho'.

Nitex · 04-03-2011, 02:18 PM

Intake placement should take full advantage of cold air INTAKE. In real world situations "not dyno fans" you should see colder intake temps with the placement of the gen3s. If someone can prove me wrong then so be it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

According to the available dyno data, the G3's make about 1.5% more whp on the average (i.e., about 4-5 whp on a dynojet) than the OEM airbox plus high flow panel filters plus smooth intake tubes.

My guess is that the small difference is due in part to the marginally better flow dynamics of cone filters; the rest may simply be due to leaning out the mixture via a small, but stable, misread on the MAF sensors, for example due to a variation in the diameter or orientation of the piping.

With tuning, the difference between them should be even less if that's the case, as you would simply set the mixture where you want it on both types of set-ups, rather than relying on mechancially induced effects.

Explain to me your theory of why the G3 should be vastly superior.

Jordo! · 04-03-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nitex

Intake placement should take full advantage of cold air INTAKE. In real world situations "not dyno fans" you should see colder intake temps with the placement of the gen3s. If someone can prove me wrong then so be it.

The OEM airboxes duct air from exactly the same place as the G3's...

A unducted/shielded SRI will perform more poorly than both.

Nitex · 04-03-2011, 02:23 PM

Interesting, my filters are pulling air from in front of my bumper core suport, completely outside the engine. Factory boxes are inside the core support/ partially inside the engine bay?

04-02-2011, 11:39 AM	#22 (permalink)
ProfessorDave A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Scranton, PA Posts: 1,580 Drives: In the fairway Rep Power: 19	Based on all that I've read, it seems that you get the biggest boost from your first intake/exhaust mod. After that, the gains are in smaller increments. So, since you have the Stillen CBE (which is a very nice sounding exhaust, BTW, with proven gains), you won't as much in the way of gains from intake (unless you get a tune). I agree with other comments that the OEM intake is well designed. I went with K&N drop-ins, and like the combo with my aftermarket exhaust. __________________ Rain, snow, sleet, hail: 2009 Mazda 3 sGT HB Everything else: 2009 370z, PW Touring 6MT

04-03-2011, 02:23 PM	#30 (permalink)
Nitex Track Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Seattle Posts: 848 Drives: '13 GTI Stage 2 UNI Rep Power: 16	Interesting, my filters are pulling air from in front of my bumper core suport, completely outside the engine. Factory boxes are inside the core support/ partially inside the engine bay? __________________ 2013 Drivers ED GTI \| Stage 2 Unitronic

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04-02-2011, 12:25 AM	#16 (permalink)
Nikkolai Base Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: DFW Posts: 238 Drives: Boss 302, Frontier Rep Power: 15	The VQ37HR is not some magical engine. It has always been a small difference between a short ram vs a cold air anyway. In the end, forced induction is the key. (All motor setups are usually dominated by American cars, Hondas, and rotary engines)