Stillen Headers + Berk HFCs self-install report

wstar · 04-03-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

Alright, I have given in to temptation. I have ordered the headers. When in doubt, pull the credit card out.

That's the spirit

I picked up an extra bottle jack this morning so I can manipulate the position of the exhaust from more places at once. Later today I'm going to put the whole car on stands (when I did the catback I just raised the rear), loosen *everything* up to and including the cat<->header bolts (but not header<->engine obviously), and get it lined up correctly with 2 jacks (supporting the Y-pipe and the center section), and see if I can get it off the crossmember permanently. Then I'll re-torque again, and if the "leak" sound is still there (and/or I can't get it off the crossmember), it's going to an exhaust shop tomorrow.

I really want to get this sorted out definitively so I can move on to the intakes this weekend, and then schedule a dyno for next week.

semtex · 04-03-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

That's the spirit

I picked up an extra bottle jack this morning so I can manipulate the position of the exhaust from more places at once. Later today I'm going to put the whole car on stands (when I did the catback I just raised the rear), loosen *everything* up to and including the cat<->header bolts (but not header<->engine obviously), and get it lined up correctly with 2 jacks (supporting the Y-pipe and the center section), and see if I can get it off the crossmember permanently. Then I'll re-torque again, and if the "leak" sound is still there, it's going to an exhaust shop tomorrow.

I really want to get this sorted out definitively so I can move on to the intakes this weekend, and then schedule a dyno for next week.

LOL. I read that as "I picked up an extra bottle of jack this morning . . ." I was like . . . how is getting lit up on Jack Daniels going to help??

Anyway, FYI my exhaust did the exact same thing you're describing, and I had to spend time making adjustments and tweaks as well. So, nothing out of the ordinary.

wstar · 04-03-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

LOL. I read that as "I picked up an extra bottle of jack this morning . . ." I was like . . . how is getting lit up on Jack Daniels going to help??

A bottle of JD might do me and the car both some good today. Been under there too long the past two days, need a real break

Quote:

Anyway, FYI my exhaust did the exact same thing you're describing, and I had to spend time making adjustments and tweaks as well. So, nothing out of the ordinary.

Yeah, so I just got done with the exhaust stuff again. It still hits the crossmember. I had it solidly 2 inches off of the thing when everything (boths sides of the cats and on back) was retorqued (with great precision to exactly "omfg I think I just broke my arm" ft/lbs), but then it falls right back onto the crossmember when I let the last bottle jack down. That's just where the hangers hang at. The jack is just lifting the whole thing up on the rubber hangers, and then letting it back down to their limit afterwards.

The upside is, I did find that 2 of the 6 bolts connecting the cats to the headers weren't properly torqued down when I went to loosen them (the hardest ones to reach, which makes sense). They were probably better, but insufficient, earlier on and had now shaken loose enough to notice. Getting that done right got rid of the ugly buzz I was talking about. The exhaust sounds perfect now. There's still a little odd rumble I can hear when the car is at crawling speed, but it's easily identifiable as the the center section vibrating against the crossmember it's laying on. Maybe I can just get some kind of rubber pad that can resist exhaust heat and stuff it between them? I donno at this point. Or shorten the rubber hangers (or bend the posts that go into them) somehow.

That "air pressure" noise I was talking about before is still there, most noticeably when gently engine braking around the 3k-ish region. I think it's just normal, as there's no other indication of a leak in the exhaust note anymore, yet if anything that sound got a little more noticeable. I kinda like it actually, as long as it's nothing bad.

Anyways, I'm not letting the crossmember thing get my spirits down. The car sounds and feels insanely good right now.

I think I'll do the intakes this weekend now for sure, although it may have to wait until Sunday, as I've got a big all-day drinking/bbq -type thing to attend during the day tomorrow.

ChrisSlicks · 04-03-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

I think I'll do the intakes this weekend now for sure, although it may have to wait until Sunday, as I've got a big all-day drinking/bbq -type thing to attend during the day tomorrow.

That sounds like a great plan. It's the first auto-x tomorrow and the forecast is rain turning to snow.

Of course Sunday when the Porsche club get it's turn it is going to be nice and sunny, go figure.

There might be some other way to adjust those exhaust hangers, maybe someone from Stillen might know, might be worth a call.

tru_Asiatik · 04-10-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

A bottle of JD might do me and the car both some good today. Been under there too long the past two days, need a real break

Yeah, so I just got done with the exhaust stuff again. It still hits the crossmember. I had it solidly 2 inches off of the thing when everything (boths sides of the cats and on back) was retorqued (with great precision to exactly "omfg I think I just broke my arm" ft/lbs), but then it falls right back onto the crossmember when I let the last bottle jack down. That's just where the hangers hang at. The jack is just lifting the whole thing up on the rubber hangers, and then letting it back down to their limit afterwards.

The upside is, I did find that 2 of the 6 bolts connecting the cats to the headers weren't properly torqued down when I went to loosen them (the hardest ones to reach, which makes sense). They were probably better, but insufficient, earlier on and had now shaken loose enough to notice. Getting that done right got rid of the ugly buzz I was talking about. The exhaust sounds perfect now. There's still a little odd rumble I can hear when the car is at crawling speed, but it's easily identifiable as the the center section vibrating against the crossmember it's laying on. Maybe I can just get some kind of rubber pad that can resist exhaust heat and stuff it between them? I donno at this point. Or shorten the rubber hangers (or bend the posts that go into them) somehow.

That "air pressure" noise I was talking about before is still there, most noticeably when gently engine braking around the 3k-ish region. I think it's just normal, as there's no other indication of a leak in the exhaust note anymore, yet if anything that sound got a little more noticeable. I kinda like it actually, as long as it's nothing bad.

Anyways, I'm not letting the crossmember thing get my spirits down. The car sounds and feels insanely good right now.

I think I'll do the intakes this weekend now for sure, although it may have to wait until Sunday, as I've got a big all-day drinking/bbq -type thing to attend during the day tomorrow.

hi can you take a picture of where it is hitting??
just bought the stillen exhaust/berk hfc combe and want to know ahead of time what to look for when im doing the installation
thank you very much

RCZ · 04-03-2009, 12:01 PM

lmao, Im about to pull the trigger on something else too

semtex · 04-03-2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

lmao, Im about to pull the trigger on something else too

And what, pray tell, would that be? We have ourselves a little 'arms race' going between us!

semtex · 04-03-2009, 05:08 PM

Mine still touches the crossmember a little bit now and then as well. I have a sneaking suspicion it's the Berks throwing things off ever so slightly. I mean think about it. When Stillen developed this exhaust, they hooked it up to stock cats. If the dimensions of the Berks deviate from the stock cats ever so slightly, it could throw off how the exhaust lines up.

wstar · 04-05-2009, 09:33 PM

A couple of updates:

I ran by an exhaust shop Saturday morning. They heated up the hangers for the center section with a torch and bent them a bit to get more clearance at the crossmember. It's no longer laying on it, but it still kinda touches and rattles there a bit, depending on exhaust temps and the phase of the moon. Hopefully I'll get it sorted out permanently soon.

I got the Stillen Gen3 intakes put on today, which completes all the major boltons (Intake, Headers, Cats, Cat-back). The install is really pretty easy, although it takes a little thought and tweaking up where the filters are. Butt dyno is still pretty impressed, the sound coming out of them is nice. I've only driven about 10 miles on them so far though, so the ECU probably hasn't even caught up with the changes yet.

I'm going to go back by that exhaust shop sometime early this week and have them sort out the crossmember issue once and for all somehow (and maybe have them weld the slip-joints so the clamps can be removed), and then schedule a dyno for the setup. I'm really interested in how the dyno looks now. My Butt Dyno impressions so far is that the upper rpm range is better all around, but I may have traded a little low-rpm torque for it (which is kinda expected with such a free-flowing exhaust setup).

LiquidZ · 04-07-2009, 09:06 AM

Thank you so much for the review.

tru_Asiatik · 04-10-2009, 08:40 AM

^^thank you very much kind sir

is the rattle that bad?do you guys forsee damge in the long run if it keeps on hitting it??

semtex · 04-10-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru_Asiatik

^^thank you very much kind sir

is the rattle that bad?do you guys forsee damge in the long run if it keeps on hitting it??

Well, you can adjust it. I took the pics above to send to my mechanic to say 'hey, we have a problem, take a look at this!'. So after I sent them, he came back, got under my car, and was able to adjust it. The rattle is mostly gone now. But the tolerances are still very tight in that spot, and every now and then I'll hear a little rattle if my car is at a certain incline or something. But it's not enough to make me worried, and my mechanic said he saw no signs of actual wear on the spot that was making intermittent contact.

Now, one thing to keep in mind is that I don't have the headers yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the headers don't change the geometry more and make things worse! I'm getting the headers put on some time next week, so we'll find out. wstar has the headers, so part of me is wondering if his problem is worse because of them.

wstar · 04-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Yes that's the same spot mine hits at. It won't destroy anything in the short term, you just don't want to hear it rattling. After I failed to get it clear myself, I went to a nearby random exhaust place earlier in the week, and they didn't do much good either.

Then I hit a well-known performance shop around here early this morning, who in turn referred me to a muffler shop down the road where they said the guy was an exhaust genius. Just got back from there. He got me clear of the crossmember and the rear swaybar and those diagonal links, but it took some pretty intense tweaking (he heated up the pipes at a couple of strategic points with a torch and bent them a little).

He also welded up the slip-fit seams for me. I'm definitely not rattling against anything anymore. I'm going to get under it tonight again myself and try to triple-check the bolts on the headers (and everything else) to make sure I'm not leaking (it's hard to tell rasp from leak under load, at least for me). I'm hoping I find a loose bolt or a failed gasket somewhere honestly, because the rasp is kinda intense. Regardless, I think a design with some kind of flex joints up in the Y-pipe section (like the stock ones had) would probably cut some of the rasp though.

Josh@STILLEN · 04-10-2009, 06:31 PM

I posted this in the other forum, but I'll repeat here.. with hopes this helps others find the right adjustments.

Quote:

Hey guys.. the exhaust can take some adjustment, as we have discussed. The best method (not saying anyone hasn't done this.. but I conferred with my service manager) is to loosen everything, and jacking at the y-pipe (hard!) get the clearance necessary to clear the crossmember.

This will take loosening the bolts at the catalytic converter brace which hooks to the transmission. This is a slotted brace, and can give you the 1/4" needed to clear everything.

You should not have to heat anything up to make clearance..

I have a 350Z on the rack, I shot a quick picture to show the location of the brace and the bolts I speak of:

wstar · 04-11-2009, 02:59 PM

Well I think the raspiness I was worried about is mainly only audible from inside the car. I finally got to hear it from the outside when I got it Dyno'd today, and it sounds great from outside. The place I was planning to go (that had a Dyno Dynamics) had some scheduling issues, but I might go back there Monday. So for now, I went to Carboys here in Houston where they had a DynoJet available. They did 3 runs, they looked pretty consistent. Max HP was 305.3, Max Torque was 241.2. These numbers sound a little low to me for full intake/exhaust compared to what else we've been seeing (given that its a DynoJet), but on the other hand (a) This is a 7AT, the rest have all been 6MT so far, (b) It was extremely humid in Houston today, and (c) Every dyno and every car is different

Anyways, I realized after I got home that I've got no way to make the graphs. He gave me the raw DGP file for the runs that has all the data (including A:F ratio), and you're supposed to download some free software from DynoJet to view it and make your custom graphs. However, I'm all Mac here, and their software is Windows-only. Anyone else wanna take my file and make graphs for me?

Video is uploading to youtube now too, I'll make a separate thread for the vid and the graphs (if someone can make them).

They also gave me a printout of the best run, I guess I could find somewhere to scan that in. The printout has lots of "gaps" in it, I'm not sure if it's just this run or if they're all like that. The tech said it was his sensors or whatever that were at fault for the gaps in the lines. Anyways, for a text analysis of what I can see on that, the torque curve is pretty broad and flat from about 4.5k to 6.5k, the horsepower is basically on a 45 degree slope that hits peak a little under 7k and stays there to where he cut off at (7.5k). Crossover point is about 6.6k.

Edit: bleh that DGP file he gave is like 95 bytes long, clearly I don't have the data, gonna go back by there later and get the real thing.

04-03-2009, 05:08 PM	#8 (permalink)
semtex A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Behind enemy lines Age: 54 Posts: 5,995 Drives: People to drink Rep Power: 33	Mine still touches the crossmember a little bit now and then as well. I have a sneaking suspicion it's the Berks throwing things off ever so slightly. I mean think about it. When Stillen developed this exhaust, they hooked it up to stock cats. If the dimensions of the Berks deviate from the stock cats ever so slightly, it could throw off how the exhaust lines up. __________________ "There are no small accidents on this circuit." -- Ayrton Senna 316.8whp & 248 ft/lbs (Dyno Dynamics) \| 319whp & 256 ft/lbs (DynoJet) (04/23/10) Stillen G3 CAI, CBE, Pulley / F.I. LTH / GTSpec Ladder Brace / Setrab Oil Cooler / UpRev-tuned by Forged Perf.

04-05-2009, 09:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	A couple of updates: I ran by an exhaust shop Saturday morning. They heated up the hangers for the center section with a torch and bent them a bit to get more clearance at the crossmember. It's no longer laying on it, but it still kinda touches and rattles there a bit, depending on exhaust temps and the phase of the moon. Hopefully I'll get it sorted out permanently soon. I got the Stillen Gen3 intakes put on today, which completes all the major boltons (Intake, Headers, Cats, Cat-back). The install is really pretty easy, although it takes a little thought and tweaking up where the filters are. Butt dyno is still pretty impressed, the sound coming out of them is nice. I've only driven about 10 miles on them so far though, so the ECU probably hasn't even caught up with the changes yet. I'm going to go back by that exhaust shop sometime early this week and have them sort out the crossmember issue once and for all somehow (and maybe have them weld the slip-joints so the clamps can be removed), and then schedule a dyno for the setup. I'm really interested in how the dyno looks now. My Butt Dyno impressions so far is that the upper rpm range is better all around, but I may have traded a little low-rpm torque for it (which is kinda expected with such a free-flowing exhaust setup). __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-10-2009, 09:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Yes that's the same spot mine hits at. It won't destroy anything in the short term, you just don't want to hear it rattling. After I failed to get it clear myself, I went to a nearby random exhaust place earlier in the week, and they didn't do much good either. Then I hit a well-known performance shop around here early this morning, who in turn referred me to a muffler shop down the road where they said the guy was an exhaust genius. Just got back from there. He got me clear of the crossmember and the rear swaybar and those diagonal links, but it took some pretty intense tweaking (he heated up the pipes at a couple of strategic points with a torch and bent them a little). He also welded up the slip-fit seams for me. I'm definitely not rattling against anything anymore. I'm going to get under it tonight again myself and try to triple-check the bolts on the headers (and everything else) to make sure I'm not leaking (it's hard to tell rasp from leak under load, at least for me). I'm hoping I find a loose bolt or a failed gasket somewhere honestly, because the rasp is kinda intense. Regardless, I think a design with some kind of flex joints up in the Y-pipe section (like the stock ones had) would probably cut some of the rasp though. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-11-2009, 02:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Well I think the raspiness I was worried about is mainly only audible from inside the car. I finally got to hear it from the outside when I got it Dyno'd today, and it sounds great from outside. The place I was planning to go (that had a Dyno Dynamics) had some scheduling issues, but I might go back there Monday. So for now, I went to Carboys here in Houston where they had a DynoJet available. They did 3 runs, they looked pretty consistent. Max HP was 305.3, Max Torque was 241.2. These numbers sound a little low to me for full intake/exhaust compared to what else we've been seeing (given that its a DynoJet), but on the other hand (a) This is a 7AT, the rest have all been 6MT so far, (b) It was extremely humid in Houston today, and (c) Every dyno and every car is different Anyways, I realized after I got home that I've got no way to make the graphs. He gave me the raw DGP file for the runs that has all the data (including A:F ratio), and you're supposed to download some free software from DynoJet to view it and make your custom graphs. However, I'm all Mac here, and their software is Windows-only. Anyone else wanna take my file and make graphs for me? Video is uploading to youtube now too, I'll make a separate thread for the vid and the graphs (if someone can make them). They also gave me a printout of the best run, I guess I could find somewhere to scan that in. The printout has lots of "gaps" in it, I'm not sure if it's just this run or if they're all like that. The tech said it was his sensors or whatever that were at fault for the gaps in the lines. Anyways, for a text analysis of what I can see on that, the torque curve is pretty broad and flat from about 4.5k to 6.5k, the horsepower is basically on a 45 degree slope that hits peak a little under 7k and stays there to where he cut off at (7.5k). Crossover point is about 6.6k. Edit: bleh that DGP file he gave is like 95 bytes long, clearly I don't have the data, gonna go back by there later and get the real thing. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 04-11-2009 at 03:09 PM.

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04-03-2009, 12:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	lmao, Im about to pull the trigger on something else too

04-07-2009, 09:06 AM	#10 (permalink)
LiquidZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,940 Drives: Mag. Black 2009 370Z Rep Power: 705	Thank you so much for the review.

04-10-2009, 08:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
tru_Asiatik Track Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: so cal Posts: 793 Drives: 2009 370Z 6MT Rep Power: 271	^^thank you very much kind sir is the rattle that bad?do you guys forsee damge in the long run if it keeps on hitting it??