EFI safety switch

tommyguns · 11-26-2014, 04:03 PM

Not sure if this is what I should be looking for to safe guard my nitrous set up. I'm planning to install it off the fuel tap. http://www.amazon.com/Nitrous-Expres...=ATVPDKIKX0DER
If not can you point me in the right direction. Thanks

gbrettin · 11-26-2014, 06:22 PM

You really don't need a new thread for every option.

SouthArk370Z · 11-26-2014, 08:15 PM

I couldn't find the electrical specs for the switch but it looks like it's what you want. You'll need some way to set the switch (calibrated pressure source) - you might be better off with a non-adjustable switch.

tommyguns · 11-26-2014, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbrettin

You really don't need a new thread for every option.

Sorry about that. Just thought I'd get more exposure.

tommyguns · 11-26-2014, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

I couldn't find the electrical specs for the switch but it looks like it's what you want. You'll need some way to set the switch (calibrated pressure source) - you might be better off with a non-adjustable switch.

Thanks. NOS has them adjustable, but come factory preset to 50. I'm searching what our cars run at. Sorry for the extra post.

SouthArk370Z · 11-26-2014, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyguns

Thanks. NOS has them adjustable, but come factory preset to 50. I'm searching what our cars run at. Sorry for the extra post.

Somebody with more experience with nitrous may have a better answer but, in general, if you are only guarding against catastrophic loss of fuel pressure (eg, pump craps out) then the setting will not be critical. If losing a few pounds of pressure is the problem, you will need to be more accurate.

Normal fuel pressure range should be in the FSM.

tommyguns · 11-26-2014, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

Somebody with more experience with nitrous may have a better answer but, in general, if you are only guarding against catastrophic loss of fuel pressure (eg, pump craps out) then the setting will not be critical. If losing a few pounds of pressure is the problem, you will need to be more accurate.

Normal fuel pressure range should be in the FSM.

I just looked over the FSM and couldn't find anything that pertains to fuel pressure. Being a newbie to nitrous myself, I'm not really sure what is most important. I'm thinking a few pound loss but like I said, at this point I'm just guessing.

Jordo! · 11-27-2014, 04:08 AM

A safety check valve to shut it down is a good idea... if you are really serious, and plan on running nitrous a lot, something that independently monitors knock and pulls timing is also worth considering (I know you can set uprev to do that with the protuner, otherwise you need something like this J&S Electronics SafeGuard Indivdual Cylinder Knock Control ).

1 or 2 step colder spark plugs are advisable as well.

Related notes: I glanced over a few of your older posts, but couldn't find clear reference to how you will handle fueling needs.

Do you have uprev? You WILL need to add a lot of extra fuel to keep in-cylinder temps in check, You'll probably need to pull a few degrees of ignition advance too. Just spraying without extra fuel (or something with a very high octane) and a bit less advance is not a great idea...

I would absolutely tune for your shot on a dyno and have someone who knows what they're doing handle it.

Anyway, with an uprev tune, before you spray, you would just switch to your nitrous tune with the cruise control, and you're set to destroy the rear tires.

Another option is to add a water/meth injection kit -- the shot and the W/M Injection could all be set on the same progressive controller/window switch, or at least run in tandem -- for maximum safety.

If you go with adding a W/M kit, I'd consider porting directly into the IM with high atomization injectors. I can offer more tips and details on W/M injection if you decide to go that route; I have a good bit of experience with that.

In short, to do this right and minimize the chance of detonation, you should treat this like any other FI set up, with the exception of worrying about intercooling.

If all this is old news to you -- sorry to clog up the thread, and looking forward to the track or dyno results!

SouthArk370Z · 11-27-2014, 08:04 AM

According to page EC-608 of the 2009 FSM:
At idling : Approximately 350 kPa (3.57 kg/cm2, 51 psi)

Jordo! · 11-27-2014, 09:10 AM

A note on fuel pressure: Boost pressure fights fuel pressure, but I don't know if the psi difference from a nitrous bottle is really a major issue -- all the power comes from adding a ton of extra oxygen to the mixture (much more than the in same quantity of ambient air!), but not so much through compression of the charge, meaning lower charge pressures, at least as I understand it (someone correct me here if I'm wrong).

Anyway, even if it causes a slight drop in pressure, it's really the increased oxygen concentration you have to worry about, and without adding more fuel you can run very, very lean.

Now, although the nitrous itself will cool the charge as it enters the IM (it's cold! The IM may feel frosty), but the benefits of the temp drop going in is at odds with the lean burn in-cylinder if fueling is insufficient. This may create hot spots on the piston crown and can cause flame kernels to flare along it, resulting in preigntion and knock... also, the greater pressure wave created during combustion can cause autoignition of the fuel, also resulting in detonation and knock (i.e., un-timed/unplanned combustion events -- engines don't generally like that).

Sooo... long story short, fuel pressure drops shouldn't really be the big issue to contend with (maybe for motors that run adjustable FPR's?). It's making sure your injectors can handle the fueling needs, tuning them to have increased duty cycles when spraying, and retarding ignition advance and using "colder" plugs, making you less prone to preignition events.

Actually, with enough of a pressure wave, you can crack a ringland without any detonation -- the force alone can break it on the compression stroke. I doubt you have to worry about that considering motors are holding together making tons of torque (although more gradually with turbines, whereas N2O hits full force all at once...)

And/or, like I said, a safety device that can shut it down/pull tons of timing at the first sign of knock or water/meth injection are also good additions.

Just spraying and playing, which lots of folks do, isn't a great idea for engine longevity, and although the motor may never have a problem during the course of your ownership, the second owner might wonder why s/he has spun a rod at < 100K...

Anyway, it sounds like you are doing a lot of research and planning rather than just bolting it on and hoping for the best, so you should be having fun (and safely) before you know it

tommyguns · 11-27-2014, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

According to page EC-608 of the 2009 FSM:
At idling : Approximately 350 kPa (3.57 kg/cm2, 51 psi)

Thanks, I probably wasn't looking in the right section. Just starting to get familiar with it.

tommyguns · 11-27-2014, 12:14 PM

Hey Jordo,
Thanks for the info. I do have uprev and my shop of choice will be RAD or Vinny Ten Racing.
So I shouldn't worry about a fuel pressure safety switch. One less thing I have to wire.
I'm taking my time and trying to get as educated as I can during the process. The car is away for the winter, unless there are some odd warm days, I don't think the car will see the road after the tune and dyno.
I don't plan on spraying all over town, so use will be on the low side. I'm not sure of the average amount of shots you get from a 10lb bottle.
I'm sure I'm getting on the annoying side with all my post, but I don't want to have a catastrophic failure.
What I would like is to be able to skip first and second gear, I know there is a way to do it so if any one has some insight on that I would really appreciate it.

SouthArk370Z · 11-27-2014, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyguns

Thanks, I probably wasn't looking in the right section. Just starting to get familiar with it.

Dump all the PDFs into a folder then tell your reader to search all documents in that folder. In Adobe Reader it's Edit:Advanced Search. I did that and used "fuel pressure" as the search string.

Jordo! · 11-27-2014, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommyguns

Hey Jordo,
Thanks for the info. I do have uprev and my shop of choice will be RAD or Vinny Ten Racing.
So I shouldn't worry about a fuel pressure safety switch. One less thing I have to wire.
I'm taking my time and trying to get as educated as I can during the process. The car is away for the winter, unless there are some odd warm days, I don't think the car will see the road after the tune and dyno.
I don't plan on spraying all over town, so use will be on the low side. I'm not sure of the average amount of shots you get from a 10lb bottle.
I'm sure I'm getting on the annoying side with all my post, but I don't want to have a catastrophic failure.
What I would like is to be able to skip first and second gear, I know there is a way to do it so if any one has some insight on that I would really appreciate it.

Okay -- that's good! If you have seasoned guys with protuner cables and a dyno, you are set other than maybe colder plugs.

Unless they strongly urge you to use the shut off valve, I'd just see if they can have your "nitrous tune" aggressively pull timing if there's any sign of knock.

If knock sensor response gets too sensitive, you can always dial less sensitivity in (hell, you can probably have a "regular", "sensitive knock detect" and "ultra sensitive knock detect" map, the latter two for, say winter vs. summer.

As to the gear issue -- are you looking to start in a higher gear for traction? Have you looked into a launch controller?

tommyguns · 11-27-2014, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Okay -- that's good! If you have seasoned guys with protuner cables and a dyno, you are set other than maybe colder plugs.

Unless they strongly urge you to use the shut off valve, I'd just see if they can have your "nitrous tune" aggressively pull timing if there's any sign of knock.

If knock sensor response gets too sensitive, you can always dial less sensitivity in (hell, you can probably have a "regular", "sensitive knock detect" and "ultra sensitive knock detect" map, the latter two for, say winter vs. summer.

As to the gear issue -- are you looking to start in a higher gear for traction? Have you looked into a launch controller?

I would like to set it so that the system is active but won't spray until I reach 3rd gear and beyond.

11-26-2014, 04:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
tommyguns Track Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: New York Age: 65 Posts: 914 Drives: 370Z/Sport/Black/MT Rep Power: 17	EFI safety switch Not sure if this is what I should be looking for to safe guard my nitrous set up. I'm planning to install it off the fuel tap. http://www.amazon.com/Nitrous-Expres...=ATVPDKIKX0DER If not can you point me in the right direction. Thanks __________________ 09 Sport / MB / 6sd / Nismo"R" Intake / Eibach Pro Kit / Z1 25 row cooler / JWT LW FW / New Short Block 3/11/11 /H&R 15fr 20rr/DBA 4000/FI CB with 12"res./Morel/JL/"Division"mod/SPC/EcuTek/M370/ZEX C SHOT/ART's/NRG Last edited by tommyguns; 11-26-2014 at 05:37 PM.

11-26-2014, 06:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
gbrettin A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Portage, MI Posts: 2,285 Drives: Tricycle Rep Power: 589151	You really don't need a new thread for every option. SouthArk370Z likes this.

11-26-2014, 08:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
SouthArk370Z Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 8,435 Drives: 2014 Challenger Rep Power: 324198	I couldn't find the electrical specs for the switch but it looks like it's what you want. You'll need some way to set the switch (calibrated pressure source) - you might be better off with a non-adjustable switch. __________________ Steering Lock Links - Search The370Z Bookmarklet - FSM @ NICOclub Mankind has progressed past the need for war but we haven't evolved that far. - NachoMahma

11-27-2014, 04:08 AM	#8 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	A safety check valve to shut it down is a good idea... if you are really serious, and plan on running nitrous a lot, something that independently monitors knock and pulls timing is also worth considering (I know you can set uprev to do that with the protuner, otherwise you need something like this J&S Electronics SafeGuard Indivdual Cylinder Knock Control ). 1 or 2 step colder spark plugs are advisable as well. Related notes: I glanced over a few of your older posts, but couldn't find clear reference to how you will handle fueling needs. Do you have uprev? You WILL need to add a lot of extra fuel to keep in-cylinder temps in check, You'll probably need to pull a few degrees of ignition advance too. Just spraying without extra fuel (or something with a very high octane) and a bit less advance is not a great idea... I would absolutely tune for your shot on a dyno and have someone who knows what they're doing handle it. Anyway, with an uprev tune, before you spray, you would just switch to your nitrous tune with the cruise control, and you're set to destroy the rear tires. Another option is to add a water/meth injection kit -- the shot and the W/M Injection could all be set on the same progressive controller/window switch, or at least run in tandem -- for maximum safety. If you go with adding a W/M kit, I'd consider porting directly into the IM with high atomization injectors. I can offer more tips and details on W/M injection if you decide to go that route; I have a good bit of experience with that. In short, to do this right and minimize the chance of detonation, you should treat this like any other FI set up, with the exception of worrying about intercooling. If all this is old news to you -- sorry to clog up the thread, and looking forward to the track or dyno results! tommyguns and madwi like this. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it. Last edited by Jordo!; 11-27-2014 at 04:14 AM.

11-27-2014, 08:04 AM	#9 (permalink)
SouthArk370Z Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 8,435 Drives: 2014 Challenger Rep Power: 324198	According to page EC-608 of the 2009 FSM: At idling : Approximately 350 kPa (3.57 kg/cm2, 51 psi) Boost_lee, tommyguns, Jordo! and 1 others like this. __________________ Steering Lock Links - Search The370Z Bookmarklet - FSM @ NICOclub Mankind has progressed past the need for war but we haven't evolved that far. - NachoMahma

11-27-2014, 09:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	A note on fuel pressure: Boost pressure fights fuel pressure, but I don't know if the psi difference from a nitrous bottle is really a major issue -- all the power comes from adding a ton of extra oxygen to the mixture (much more than the in same quantity of ambient air!), but not so much through compression of the charge, meaning lower charge pressures, at least as I understand it (someone correct me here if I'm wrong). Anyway, even if it causes a slight drop in pressure, it's really the increased oxygen concentration you have to worry about, and without adding more fuel you can run very, very lean. Now, although the nitrous itself will cool the charge as it enters the IM (it's cold! The IM may feel frosty), but the benefits of the temp drop going in is at odds with the lean burn in-cylinder if fueling is insufficient. This may create hot spots on the piston crown and can cause flame kernels to flare along it, resulting in preigntion and knock... also, the greater pressure wave created during combustion can cause autoignition of the fuel, also resulting in detonation and knock (i.e., un-timed/unplanned combustion events -- engines don't generally like that). Sooo... long story short, fuel pressure drops shouldn't really be the big issue to contend with (maybe for motors that run adjustable FPR's?). It's making sure your injectors can handle the fueling needs, tuning them to have increased duty cycles when spraying, and retarding ignition advance and using "colder" plugs, making you less prone to preignition events. Actually, with enough of a pressure wave, you can crack a ringland without any detonation -- the force alone can break it on the compression stroke. I doubt you have to worry about that considering motors are holding together making tons of torque (although more gradually with turbines, whereas N2O hits full force all at once...) And/or, like I said, a safety device that can shut it down/pull tons of timing at the first sign of knock or water/meth injection are also good additions. Just spraying and playing, which lots of folks do, isn't a great idea for engine longevity, and although the motor may never have a problem during the course of your ownership, the second owner might wonder why s/he has spun a rod at < 100K... Anyway, it sounds like you are doing a lot of research and planning rather than just bolting it on and hoping for the best, so you should be having fun (and safely) before you know it __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it. Last edited by Jordo!; 11-27-2014 at 09:23 AM.

11-27-2014, 12:14 PM	#12 (permalink)
tommyguns Track Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: New York Age: 65 Posts: 914 Drives: 370Z/Sport/Black/MT Rep Power: 17	Hey Jordo, Thanks for the info. I do have uprev and my shop of choice will be RAD or Vinny Ten Racing. So I shouldn't worry about a fuel pressure safety switch. One less thing I have to wire. I'm taking my time and trying to get as educated as I can during the process. The car is away for the winter, unless there are some odd warm days, I don't think the car will see the road after the tune and dyno. I don't plan on spraying all over town, so use will be on the low side. I'm not sure of the average amount of shots you get from a 10lb bottle. I'm sure I'm getting on the annoying side with all my post, but I don't want to have a catastrophic failure. What I would like is to be able to skip first and second gear, I know there is a way to do it so if any one has some insight on that I would really appreciate it. Jordo! likes this. __________________ 09 Sport / MB / 6sd / Nismo"R" Intake / Eibach Pro Kit / Z1 25 row cooler / JWT LW FW / New Short Block 3/11/11 /H&R 15fr 20rr/DBA 4000/FI CB with 12"res./Morel/JL/"Division"mod/SPC/EcuTek/M370/ZEX C SHOT/ART's/NRG

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