P2A00 - A/F Sensor Circuit Range/Performance (bank 1 sensor 1)

Jordo! · 08-21-2014, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwick

Maybe I'm missing something. Only the random misfire code was messed with. The other individual cylinder misfire codes are still active. If I had a true misfire wouldn't a specific cylinder code pop up?

It is possible my issue is below 1500rpms, and I was below when it tripped the code this time around. The code popped up when I pulled up to the stop light and the idle hiccup happened (BP guys know exactly what I'm talking about). I had just left the work parking garage so the car wasn't really warm yet. The rpms dipped lower than on a 'typical' hiccup and the code came on. My thought is as it stumbled (hiccupped) the rpms dropped lower than normal and left it in a lean AFR state that tripped the code. All the parameters I've checked are spot on. All the bank readings are the same for each parameter except the sensor heater voltage (which Bank 1 is about 25% lower than Bank 2). Car runs find, idles fine, and in slight boosting applications it operates fine. I've not given it a WOT until I can absolutely confirm everything.

I picked up a new can of carb cleaner and I'll check the intake piping this weekend.

You wouldn't necessarily get a cylinder specific code.

When does the stumble hiccup happen? That may give a clue. When datalogging (or reviewing it later) take note of what the voltage readings are doing, as well as load and TP.

I think the heater correction is normal for both -- the difference may or may not reflect anything.

Once you confirm no vac leaks, no bad spark plugs, and injectors are working fine, all that's left is to check the O2 sensor (or just replace -- Denso p/n is 234-9104), wiring, and connector. If all is good then assume its just bad detection logic until a clear symptom presents itself.

You should be able to narrow it down between cipher and checking those few specific mechanical issues.

Finally, if the problem is consistent and can be narrowed down to a specific load range,you can always tweak the Bank 1 fueling in uprev.

jwick · 08-21-2014, 07:50 PM

The hiccup is the same for all BP kits. Happens right as you pull up to a stop. Rpms dip a bit and car goes lean then rich before it stabilizes itself. The going theory is the fact that the kit vents crank case instead of routing pcv back into it. Like the ECU is expecting it. Galeforce has a thread on here that I can't link cuz I'm on the cell. Mitch is very familiar with it too.

I'll admit that although I'm mechanically sound what goes on in the ECU and tuning software is somewhat new to me and I'm not very good at understanding the meaning of what I'm seeing.

09 Nismo#400 · 08-22-2014, 12:09 AM

rough-idle-forced-induction

Jordo! · 08-25-2014, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwick

The hiccup is the same for all BP kits. Happens right as you pull up to a stop. Rpms dip a bit and car goes lean then rich before it stabilizes itself. The going theory is the fact that the kit vents crank case instead of routing pcv back into it. Like the ECU is expecting it. Galeforce has a thread on here that I can't link cuz I'm on the cell. Mitch is very familiar with it too.

I'll admit that although I'm mechanically sound what goes on in the ECU and tuning software is somewhat new to me and I'm not very good at understanding the meaning of what I'm seeing.

Hmm. That shouldn't cause it unless its pulling vacuum, although its possible that it is... see further here Pcv Valve For Turbo & Centrifugal Apps - Forced Induction and Nitrous - SilveradoSS.com

In any case, your sensors sound ok, and it sounds like this is a common problem. Maybe include a PCV and vac line and/or catch can? If OEM PCV isn't up to it, I know there are aftermarket PCV's for boosted applications.

Mitco39 · 08-25-2014, 09:45 AM

Jordo, take a look at the thread and let me know if you have any ideas. Thats the best one I got, and I plugged the vac lines going to the intake manifold and atleast around idle the problem seemed much better. Didnt want to drive it like that because I first want to get a catch can.

Rough idle with forced induction

jwick · 08-25-2014, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Hmm. That shouldn't cause it unless its pulling vacuum, although its possible that it is... see further here Pcv Valve For Turbo & Centrifugal Apps - Forced Induction and Nitrous - SilveradoSS.com

In any case, your sensors sound ok, and it sounds like this is a common problem. Maybe include a PCV and vac line and/or catch can? If OEM PCV isn't up to it, I know there are aftermarket PCV's for boosted applications.

We would have to tap the intake piping to route the PCV back into the system. Currently it's vented with no nipple to attach to on the intake piping leading up to the throttle body.

I'm very interested to see what happens when Mitch gets a catch can and is able to drive around without the PCV system completely.

On a similar note I order my O2 bung plugs and will get my tuner to update my map to disable the code this week. See how much that helps the idle issue. Any true tuning updates will have to wait until I get the V1.5 piping.

Jordo! · 08-31-2014, 07:20 AM

I think for both you guys, welding a nipple for a PCV or setting up catch cans is the only solution.

At light load, you guys are clearly pulling vacuum, so that means you need a regulatory valve to fix.

Either fix will do, because it will result in a closed system -- than means no more unmetered air slipping in.

The only other solution I can see would be trying to have a PCV before the open filter? Then the crankcase filter becomes a one way vent.

Just throwing out some ideas to try...

puckshaw · 10-07-2014, 10:01 PM

So has anyone found a fix for this yet? I'm hesitant to start replacing expensive sensors if that's not the issue. If it's harmless, then I guess I could have the code disabled. If there's some risk, then I want to find a real fix. Anyone tried Jordos suggestions?

jwick · 10-07-2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckshaw

So has anyone found a fix for this yet? I'm hesitant to start replacing expensive sensors if that's not the issue. If it's harmless, then I guess I could have the code disabled. If there's some risk, then I want to find a real fix. Anyone tried Jordos suggestions?

Hasn't come back sonce I reset it last time. Of course the G isn't my daily anymore so it doesn't get as many miles.

Short story long, I've made no changes

puckshaw · 10-07-2014, 11:30 PM

Gotcha. I don't drive mine much either but it always comes back eventually.

Jordo! · 10-08-2014, 02:31 AM

Adding a PCV or catchcan should fix the problem. The crankcase needs to vent and not suck air.

If you have a nipple welded in you might get away with a breather filter too --but if its pulling air you need to keep everything in a closed system.

jwick · 10-08-2014, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Adding a PCV or catchcan should fix the problem. The crankcase needs to vent and not suck air.

If you have a nipple welded in you might get away with a breather filter too --but if its pulling air you need to keep everything in a closed system.

Everything I've heard tells me that if you were to route the PCV back in, instead of venting it, you would have to do that pre-turbo. Both the AAM and GTM kits do it that way, and I would venture to guess FI is the same. The problem is the air filter in our setup is clamped directly to the inlet of the turbo and there is no room to route it back in.

Anybody familiar enough with the GTM SC kits to know what they do with the secondary PCV system (the one that OEM routes back into the intake)?

I was also discussing with Mitco39 and he told me that tapping the intake piping and routing back in would open up other issues. Can't remember all the details because it was above my technical knowledge.

So it appears that a catch can might be the only solution but wouldn't that be vented too?

MyKindaGuise · 10-08-2014, 09:42 AM

Has anyone or have you guys considered doing a crank case evac system setup? That my plan but I havent found anyone who has done it yet. I want to avoid taping it back into the intake system as well and a CCE system would avoid that.

I can confirm that my kit stumbles as well when coming to a stop and im venting too.

jwick · 10-08-2014, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyKindaGuise

Has anyone or have you guys considered doing a crank case evac system setup? That my plan but I havent found anyone who has done it yet. I want to avoid taping it back into the intake system as well and a CCE system would avoid that.

I can confirm that my kit stumbles as well when coming to a stop and im venting too.

Are you running the VSR kit?

Mitco39 · 10-08-2014, 10:19 AM

The trick here is allowing the crankcase to vent to atm while at the same time keeping boost out of there. Ideally you want a bit of a vacuum at all times in the crankcase. But when you go boosted this stops happening under WOT as your manifold pressure is no longer below atm. This means that you cannot tap into the intake as you could under NA without some sort of metering system to keep the pressure of the crankcase at or below atm.

What you really need is a vac pump. because under WOT you don't have a vac source. At idle things are fine because of your throttle bodies. WOT in a NA car still has a marginal vacuum in the intake runners just due to the pressure differential between your air filters and the combustion chamber.

Its hard because for every idea that comes up there is a reason why its not going to work.

08-21-2014, 07:50 PM	#32 (permalink)
jwick A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Houston Posts: 14,532 Drives: '10 G37 6MT Rep Power: 2465056	The hiccup is the same for all BP kits. Happens right as you pull up to a stop. Rpms dip a bit and car goes lean then rich before it stabilizes itself. The going theory is the fact that the kit vents crank case instead of routing pcv back into it. Like the ECU is expecting it. Galeforce has a thread on here that I can't link cuz I'm on the cell. Mitch is very familiar with it too. I'll admit that although I'm mechanically sound what goes on in the ECU and tuning software is somewhat new to me and I'm not very good at understanding the meaning of what I'm seeing. __________________ '10 G37T 6MT Graphite/Graphite - BP - G37T Build

08-22-2014, 12:09 AM	#33 (permalink)
09 Nismo#400 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: North Dakota Posts: 25 Drives: 09 370z Nismo T Rep Power: 13	rough-idle-forced-induction jwick and GaleForce like this.

08-25-2014, 09:45 AM	#35 (permalink)
Mitco39 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada Posts: 2,089 Drives: 40th 370z Rep Power: 132	Jordo, take a look at the thread and let me know if you have any ideas. Thats the best one I got, and I plugged the vac lines going to the intake manifold and atleast around idle the problem seemed much better. Didnt want to drive it like that because I first want to get a catch can. Rough idle with forced induction __________________ 2007 Chevy Duramax - EFILive Tuned By Me 2010 40th W/ Nav - Boosted Performance - UpRev Tuned By Me The Mrs. Ride -2012 335XI N55 BMW - Cobb Tuned By Me, Built by her My Build --> http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...39s-build.html

08-31-2014, 07:20 AM	#37 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	I think for both you guys, welding a nipple for a PCV or setting up catch cans is the only solution. At light load, you guys are clearly pulling vacuum, so that means you need a regulatory valve to fix. Either fix will do, because it will result in a closed system -- than means no more unmetered air slipping in. The only other solution I can see would be trying to have a PCV before the open filter? Then the crankcase filter becomes a one way vent. Just throwing out some ideas to try... Smashley likes this. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it. Last edited by Jordo!; 08-31-2014 at 07:23 AM.

10-07-2014, 10:01 PM	#38 (permalink)
puckshaw Track Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 620 Drives: 09 PW 370Z Touring Rep Power: 17	So has anyone found a fix for this yet? I'm hesitant to start replacing expensive sensors if that's not the issue. If it's harmless, then I guess I could have the code disabled. If there's some risk, then I want to find a real fix. Anyone tried Jordos suggestions? __________________ >>>>>BP Build Thread<<<<<

10-07-2014, 11:30 PM	#40 (permalink)
puckshaw Track Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 620 Drives: 09 PW 370Z Touring Rep Power: 17	Gotcha. I don't drive mine much either but it always comes back eventually. __________________ >>>>>BP Build Thread<<<<<

10-08-2014, 02:31 AM	#41 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	Adding a PCV or catchcan should fix the problem. The crankcase needs to vent and not suck air. If you have a nipple welded in you might get away with a breather filter too --but if its pulling air you need to keep everything in a closed system. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

10-08-2014, 09:42 AM	#43 (permalink)
MyKindaGuise A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 2,029 Drives: 11' 370z Sprt M6 Rep Power: 19	Has anyone or have you guys considered doing a crank case evac system setup? That my plan but I havent found anyone who has done it yet. I want to avoid taping it back into the intake system as well and a CCE system would avoid that. I can confirm that my kit stumbles as well when coming to a stop and im venting too. __________________ \|445whp398tq\| \|BW S259 Turbo\|3" Downpipe\Exhaust\|ID1000\|AeroMotive\|Tial\|EcuTek\|BC BR\|S0-4\|MaffFab\| MKGs-Single-Turbo Last edited by MyKindaGuise; 10-08-2014 at 09:49 AM.

10-08-2014, 10:19 AM	#45 (permalink)
Mitco39 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada Posts: 2,089 Drives: 40th 370z Rep Power: 132	The trick here is allowing the crankcase to vent to atm while at the same time keeping boost out of there. Ideally you want a bit of a vacuum at all times in the crankcase. But when you go boosted this stops happening under WOT as your manifold pressure is no longer below atm. This means that you cannot tap into the intake as you could under NA without some sort of metering system to keep the pressure of the crankcase at or below atm. What you really need is a vac pump. because under WOT you don't have a vac source. At idle things are fine because of your throttle bodies. WOT in a NA car still has a marginal vacuum in the intake runners just due to the pressure differential between your air filters and the combustion chamber. Its hard because for every idea that comes up there is a reason why its not going to work. Jordo! and jwick like this. __________________ 2007 Chevy Duramax - EFILive Tuned By Me 2010 40th W/ Nav - Boosted Performance - UpRev Tuned By Me The Mrs. Ride -2012 335XI N55 BMW - Cobb Tuned By Me, Built by her My Build --> http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...39s-build.html

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