GT Motorsports: 370Z Supercharger system development

Danny3.7 · 10-05-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve

now will an intercooler help keep the oil cooler too?

B1nks · 10-05-2009, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny3.7

Hey man let's not be rude, it is funny, but I've asked a lot of stupid questions before too but that's how we learn.

RCZ · 10-06-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve

And you can get the same HP with less PSI with an intercooler so with one you can go lower psi or raise the psi for even more power.

I mean no offense, but you should read up on forced induction a bit and rethink this statement...

Z eliminator · 10-06-2009, 07:56 AM

Sam. whats happening with the SC set up? Is it ready yet ? Its going to snow up here in a few weeks and i will be putting the car away for the winter.

Zsteve · 10-06-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I mean no offense, but you should read up on forced induction a bit and rethink this statement...

So you are saying that with an IC I cant run a lower PSI to achieve a certain HP that would require more PSI to achieve the same HP without an intercooler?

Zsteve · 10-06-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny3.7

I guess what I was asking on this is if an IC causes lower AITs will the engine run cooler and will that cause the oil to be cooler?

Zsteve · 10-06-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I mean no offense, but you should read up on forced induction a bit and rethink this statement...

Here is an article that I got this from, as with all things on the internet it doesnt mean its right but who knows, sounds right. And Im coming from a turbo car and I do know more boost means more power till you get to a point of deminishing returns. Dont know if its much different with a SC though.

Intercooled Vs. Non-Intercooled Supercharger

TARDCORE · 10-06-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsteve

So you are saying that with an IC I cant run a lower PSI to achieve a certain HP that would require more PSI to achieve the same HP without an intercooler?

you are thinking too much into the way that colder air produces more power due to it being more oxygen rich than hot air. This all true but the air that is compressed from the turbo or SC is HOT. IC just cools the air down. I am not really sure by how many degrees though. So without an IC you risk damaging your engine. the "knocking" effect.

Zsteve · 10-07-2009, 07:21 AM

I agree and thats what I was referring too and the article refers to, the IC gives you lower AITs which is more dense air which allows more fuel and you can then achieve a said amount of HP at a certain PSI. Without the IC you get less dense air so less fuel so less power. So like the article says to get 400HP without an IC takes maybe 10 PSI but with an IC it may take 5 PSI. Now if I have an IC and run the same PSI as a non IC SC I will have more power, which is why I said more PSI more power. Of course thats till you get to the point of deminishing value. Ive had turbo cars (MK1 TT and MKII TT forover 9 yrs so I do understand them alittle and Im sure SCs are about the same. I think RCZ might have thought I was saying something else.

RCZ · 10-07-2009, 12:02 PM

Your theory is kinda there, but your practical knowledge has some holes.

Yes, you will make more power with colder denser air. As air cools and compresses (think of a balloon after a few minutes of being in the freezer) you can fit more of it into the same space. This space being the engine. Denser air will contain more oxygen and will produce a stronger explosion in your cylinder per volume than warmer air will. That is why you get more power with colder air out of the same engine than you would with hot air. So far you are right.

Now in practice, the power difference between cold air and warm air is NOT by any means as huge as you are making it. You will never make up 5 psi from a turbo by feeding colder air into the engine. If this were the case you would see race cars with super cooled intake charges, not just intercoolers. So your theory of being able to run 5psi less with an intercooled engine vs a non intercooled engine to make the same power is way way off. In theory you could run less psi with an intercooler and make the same power, but the gains aren't really so huge.. if they were then those intercooler NX chillers would be huge. Some people also made ice boxes for intakes a while back to help cool down the charge, but you dont see those around much anymore do you?

Dont forget that there is also a pressure drop from using an intercooler. As in your turbo might be pushing 10 psi but your engine only sees 9 psi. Drops increase as the size of your intercooler increases so you will have to make your turbo work harder/hotter in order to reach the psi you want at the engine, which will negate the effects of the intercooler a little bit as well. Not to mention you will be running a BOV at this point, which means you will dump the pressure that's in your IC system which you will have to refill once you get back on the throttle. That little time it takes to refill ad re-pressurize decreases your cars responsiveness in on/off throttle situations and low rpm situations....which is to say the least annoying.

Now another misconception is that a turbocharger will make more power than a supercharger. That is NOT true. 5psi from a turbo is the same as 5psi from a supercharger, the power is the same. The only reason turbo kits make more power is because you can run bigger turbos with more volume and higher psi efficiency zones, whereas you are often limited to a lower max (efficiency speaking) psi with the supercharger.

As tardcore said, intercoolers are used to increase the safety of the system...to prevent charge air temps to be high and increase the likelihood of detonation. The best way to make a sc/tc safer is to have a nice efficient intercooler (big enough to cool, small enough for good response) and run some water or methanol injection in order to increase the octanage. That will minimize chances of detonation/knocking while getting the most out of your FI.

G37Sam · 10-07-2009, 12:18 PM

Couldn't agree more with RCZ, the analysis used by Corky was over simplified in order for the somewhat average reader to not struggle trying to figure out what's being said, which is why the numbers came out so inflated. The conclusion is still the same, an intercooler will yield more HP at the same Boost Pressure in the end.

If you want to get technical however, nothing beats experimental analysis. Number's from the real world. Here's a nice read: Understanding Intercooler Efficiency and Pressure Loss - bimmerfest - BMW Forums

Modshack · 10-07-2009, 12:23 PM

RCZ is basically correct....... Intercoolers are absolutely necessary to cool the Charge air which is heated from compression. A nicely balanced system will handle pressure drop, temps and flow nicely and make more power. The lower you can keep the temps at the manifold, the greater timing advance and consequent power is developed. It's is widely known that cooler air makes more power..Most of that (Not factoring in Boost), when measured as IAT's is coming from timing advance..Regardless, FI or not, cooler is always better...

My last Audi with a well balanced, intercooled turbo system at 23 PSI:

RCZ · 10-07-2009, 12:30 PM

Cool links and graphics, those should really help drive the point home. + rep for you guys.

ssqpolo · 10-07-2009, 03:28 PM

so basically...intercoolers are not necessary!!

I KID I KID

kannibul · 10-07-2009, 04:09 PM

I'd say the other thing that is being skimmed over a bit, is with a S/C, you're driving it with the engine, which soaks up HP. A turbo does so as well by restricting exhaust pressure, but, not nearly as much as a S/C.

So, in that sense, lb for lb of boost, a turbo does "generate" more power due to it not soaking up as much power to generate that boost pressure.

In that sense, a s/c application does show less "gain" at a given boost level.

10-06-2009, 07:56 AM	#229 (permalink)
Z eliminator A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 1,659 Drives: 370 Z 7AT Sports Rep Power: 19	Sam. whats happening with the SC set up? Is it ready yet ? Its going to snow up here in a few weeks and i will be putting the car away for the winter. __________________ 12.343 @114.14 . 4.5 stroker motor is now being built. Dec 1 2015.

10-07-2009, 12:02 PM	#235 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	Your theory is kinda there, but your practical knowledge has some holes. Yes, you will make more power with colder denser air. As air cools and compresses (think of a balloon after a few minutes of being in the freezer) you can fit more of it into the same space. This space being the engine. Denser air will contain more oxygen and will produce a stronger explosion in your cylinder per volume than warmer air will. That is why you get more power with colder air out of the same engine than you would with hot air. So far you are right. Now in practice, the power difference between cold air and warm air is NOT by any means as huge as you are making it. You will never make up 5 psi from a turbo by feeding colder air into the engine. If this were the case you would see race cars with super cooled intake charges, not just intercoolers. So your theory of being able to run 5psi less with an intercooled engine vs a non intercooled engine to make the same power is way way off. In theory you could run less psi with an intercooler and make the same power, but the gains aren't really so huge.. if they were then those intercooler NX chillers would be huge. Some people also made ice boxes for intakes a while back to help cool down the charge, but you dont see those around much anymore do you? Dont forget that there is also a pressure drop from using an intercooler. As in your turbo might be pushing 10 psi but your engine only sees 9 psi. Drops increase as the size of your intercooler increases so you will have to make your turbo work harder/hotter in order to reach the psi you want at the engine, which will negate the effects of the intercooler a little bit as well. Not to mention you will be running a BOV at this point, which means you will dump the pressure that's in your IC system which you will have to refill once you get back on the throttle. That little time it takes to refill ad re-pressurize decreases your cars responsiveness in on/off throttle situations and low rpm situations....which is to say the least annoying. Now another misconception is that a turbocharger will make more power than a supercharger. That is NOT true. 5psi from a turbo is the same as 5psi from a supercharger, the power is the same. The only reason turbo kits make more power is because you can run bigger turbos with more volume and higher psi efficiency zones, whereas you are often limited to a lower max (efficiency speaking) psi with the supercharger. As tardcore said, intercoolers are used to increase the safety of the system...to prevent charge air temps to be high and increase the likelihood of detonation. The best way to make a sc/tc safer is to have a nice efficient intercooler (big enough to cool, small enough for good response) and run some water or methanol injection in order to increase the octanage. That will minimize chances of detonation/knocking while getting the most out of your FI. Last edited by RCZ; 10-07-2009 at 12:17 PM.

10-07-2009, 12:18 PM	#236 (permalink)
G37Sam A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Dubai, UAE Posts: 1,507 Drives: RB'd G37 Rep Power: 21	Couldn't agree more with RCZ, the analysis used by Corky was over simplified in order for the somewhat average reader to not struggle trying to figure out what's being said, which is why the numbers came out so inflated. The conclusion is still the same, an intercooler will yield more HP at the same Boost Pressure in the end. If you want to get technical however, nothing beats experimental analysis. Number's from the real world. Here's a nice read: Understanding Intercooler Efficiency and Pressure Loss - bimmerfest - BMW Forums __________________ '14 Viper GTS '08 RB'd G37S - Sold

10-07-2009, 12:23 PM	#237 (permalink)
Modshack A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Greenville NC Posts: 2,883 Drives: 370Z Sport Rep Power: 976	RCZ is basically correct....... Intercoolers are absolutely necessary to cool the Charge air which is heated from compression. A nicely balanced system will handle pressure drop, temps and flow nicely and make more power. The lower you can keep the temps at the manifold, the greater timing advance and consequent power is developed. It's is widely known that cooler air makes more power..Most of that (Not factoring in Boost), when measured as IAT's is coming from timing advance..Regardless, FI or not, cooler is always better... My last Audi with a well balanced, intercooled turbo system at 23 PSI: __________________ Steal my car! (SOLD)...Now Porsche Cayman S Oil Cooler DIY: Here! Last edited by Modshack; 10-07-2009 at 12:29 PM.

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10-07-2009, 07:21 AM	#234 (permalink)
Zsteve A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: TX Posts: 3,298 Drives: the 2 balled club Rep Power: 22	I agree and thats what I was referring too and the article refers to, the IC gives you lower AITs which is more dense air which allows more fuel and you can then achieve a said amount of HP at a certain PSI. Without the IC you get less dense air so less fuel so less power. So like the article says to get 400HP without an IC takes maybe 10 PSI but with an IC it may take 5 PSI. Now if I have an IC and run the same PSI as a non IC SC I will have more power, which is why I said more PSI more power. Of course thats till you get to the point of deminishing value. Ive had turbo cars (MK1 TT and MKII TT forover 9 yrs so I do understand them alittle and Im sure SCs are about the same. I think RCZ might have thought I was saying something else.

10-07-2009, 12:30 PM	#238 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	Cool links and graphics, those should really help drive the point home. + rep for you guys.

10-07-2009, 03:28 PM	#239 (permalink)
ssqpolo Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 882 Drives: '12 Black Nismo Rep Power: 267	so basically...intercoolers are not necessary!! I KID I KID

10-07-2009, 04:09 PM	#240 (permalink)
kannibul A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jenks, OK Posts: 2,281 Drives: 370z Touring/Sport Rep Power: 267	I'd say the other thing that is being skimmed over a bit, is with a S/C, you're driving it with the engine, which soaks up HP. A turbo does so as well by restricting exhaust pressure, but, not nearly as much as a S/C. So, in that sense, lb for lb of boost, a turbo does "generate" more power due to it not soaking up as much power to generate that boost pressure. In that sense, a s/c application does show less "gain" at a given boost level.