GTM MHI Kit Group Buy Participants...

Dzel · 06-09-2014, 11:08 PM

Stay on topic.

If their moving ahead in other areas. That means that the profit made on this group buy is going to unfinished projects. In turn the kit is going and has been on the back burner... That explains a lot.

Sent with tapahoe

1slow370 · 06-09-2014, 11:18 PM

what profit?

Lets remember here that very few people every paid and probably all but a few refunded, and im positive that this kit is in the 6 digit area for development costs.

A more likely scenario goes gtm wanted to make a new, kit, they gambeled on starting a group buy to mass up the r&d funds, so many people signed up that they put a really low price on it, cost escalated on the kit, this lead to the slow down, everyone started refunding pulling money that was already spent on the r&d out of the company, and now they have to cover it all out of pocket slowly as it comes in from other business to complete the kits.

They probably have to come up with as much new stuff as they can to drum up the business to cover the defunded groupbuy.

mikey1600 · 06-09-2014, 11:51 PM

so people are expected to wait over 1 year after the expected delivery date? lol what a joke, I've got my refund coming, I paid 1 year ago in full yesterday, I've got PM's/emails from Mike and Sam saying the kit will be ready to go by June/July 2013.

can you really blame people for getting a refund? If they would have kept updates flowing I'm sure majority of people would still be in the group buy, I know I would, but when there's no communication and when you ring and they promise things then don't hold up the deal, that's when it gets scary.

for almost a year now we've been waiting on "cast parts" EVEN IF a manifold is made and there is something wrong with it for testing purposes and things need to be revised, the updates need to come to tell us why it's not good or what they are improving, it doesn't take 1 year to develop some manifolds.

even if they came in and showed us some photos of the parts, and said look guys this is really not up to our standard, we need to change something or make something easier/better to use, majority of people would still be in here waiting for the kit, it's all about the communication, when there is no communication that's when things become a problem. If I ran my business the way they do, I'd be out on the street probably sleeping in the gutter, different industries but communication is still key.

the last chance for me to stay in was getting the existing items in stock which was apparently everything except for 2x manifolds/some sensor item shipped and I'd even pay extra shipping which Sam agree'd to over the phone then couldn't deliver after me giving him 3 days to get the "picking list" sorted then not delivering, also people saying they are waiting weeks/months to get a refund, moneys getting slim.

If I was local to the shop and I could swing by and check it out in person, I may still even be in it, but there's just too many negatives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

what profit?

Lets remember here that very few people every paid and probably all but a few refunded, and im positive that this kit is in the 6 digit area for development costs.

A more likely scenario goes gtm wanted to make a new, kit, they gambeled on starting a group buy to mass up the r&d funds, so many people signed up that they put a really low price on it, cost escalated on the kit, this lead to the slow down, everyone started refunding pulling money that was already spent on the r&d out of the company, and now they have to cover it all out of pocket slowly as it comes in from other business to complete the kits.

They probably have to come up with as much new stuff as they can to drum up the business to cover the defunded groupbuy.

1slow370 · 06-09-2014, 11:58 PM

i'm not blaming any one, and you are right the original timeline was a disaster, in the end you gotta do what you gotta do for you, I'm just stating what probably hapened. If the group buy had been for 50 people, at a higher price, with a mandatory deposit, and they had originaly said it would take a year longer than they did, these kits would probably be done by now.

Another option would have been to finance or plan to pay for the r&d entirely out of pocket the whole time, that way the the kits could have kept rolling along until the eventual release then they could have just brought it out at the full 8-10k price instead of taking a break on each one. I'm not blaming anyone I'm sure everyone involved thought this would go down differently, I just threw out a POSSIBLE way that this all happened.

If what I said was the case, then for those still in it you either can wait for them to finish it entirely out of pocket not knowing when that will be(who knows maybe it is almost done maybe it isn't) or you can refund and pull out and wait for either your bank to pay or for gtm to have enough regular buisness to cover it. I don't believe they are or were trying to screw anyone over, they were just banking on things not having as many delays as they did, it was simple over optimism that lead to the group buy funds that should have covered the r&d, production, and then some, being pulled out and taking funds from other projects. That isn't a ponzy scheme it's a risky yet potentially very profitable decision x bad luck x fault in execution. If they manage to get in a position to ship the kits it could still pay off, but all the **** that went down it will be a tough sell at first. At this point the most profitable option they have is to refund those who are still in, cancel the group buy and bring the kit to market at full price when they finish it and accept the blow to the company image and try to recover.

If they don't do that and decide to bring out at group buy price to those still in it maybe they can get some sales based on the price but it will still be a smaller number in which case they could recover more with a better margin due to the lower volume and canceling the group buy would still be the sensible choice.

Everyone wants jump on the ponzy/fraud wagon when there is a much easier and more plausible explanation for it all they had good intentions, took a risk, it isn't working out, and know it has turned into a bad decision in hindsight and all they can do is do WHATEVER they have to pull it off and try to keep from ending up homeless. If he had really wanted to screw you all over he would have taken ALL the money up front signed out on a custom products/non-refundable contract got past the initial 6 months, folded up shop and retired in the bahama's instead of going through what to him must seem like slowly cutting of a leg with a rusty butter knife for a year and a half.

Dajerseyrat · 06-10-2014, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

what profit?

Lets remember here that very few people every paid and probably all but a few refunded, and im positive that this kit is in the 6 digit area for development costs.

A more likely scenario goes gtm wanted to make a new, kit, they gambeled on starting a group buy to mass up the r&d funds, so many people signed up that they put a really low price on it, cost escalated on the kit, this lead to the slow down, everyone started refunding pulling money that was already spent on the r&d out of the company, and now they have to cover it all out of pocket slowly as it comes in from other business to complete the kits.

They probably have to come up with as much new stuff as they can to drum up the business to cover the defunded groupbuy.

So is it safe to say that everyone who entered the group buy is officially an INVESTOR ?? Since they paid the R&D for a company that did not yet have a product to physically sell..Are they entitled to a % of future sales as a result of funding the project?

If you dont have an actual product to sell how are you selling it?

1slow370 · 06-10-2014, 01:00 AM

many initial group buys and preorders are done on the same premises, THAT'S WHY THEY GIVE YOU ******* DISCOUNT, a group of people pays to develop a product in exchange they get a one time only price at a low margin for participating in it. IT's the same concept as offering your car for development in exchange for a reduced price on the final product.

Even if they fail unless you can prove in court that they had no intention of making good on the product you are not likely to win a case for fraud and the best you could hope for is getting your money back with no compensation for time or interest

Berk did the same thing with the initial exhaust group buy, they had one developed, started a group buy to cover manufacture and tooling costs, it ended up taking longer than expected, the units had problems which took even longer to resolve, went something like 6 months past the initial 3-4weeks, they had to refund several guys, in the end they shipped, everyone got their exhaust and was happy and now they can offer it for normal sale. Are you telling me I should go hit up Berk for my stock options and dividends?

If I sent my car as a test car to you so you could come up with a new product are you going to give me a percentage of all future sales? hell no but you might give me a discount.

Also like I said that is just one case of what could have happened, maybe the group buy was never intended to fund the r&d at all, and other complications came up that slowed it down and funding was never the issue. My point is there a lots of ways for this to have happened without involving deliberate fraud,

Edit:If you are saying you would do this "If I sent my car as a test car to you so you could come up with a new product are you going to give me a percentage of all future sales?" let me know if you ever need a test car partner

Dajerseyrat · 06-10-2014, 08:38 AM

Actually my post was an attempt at sarcasm...You quoting the Berk Group buy that went 6 months over the 3-4 week comparison pales in comparison to something that is over a year in the making and has many people worried with rumors of pending bankruptcy..

From past experiences, legitimate "GROUP BUYS" are done for shops to do their buy ins with companies, or companies are releasing their new product that they already have made and want to get it to the market. I have never heard of group buy participants actually funding the R&D and development of a product that was supposed to already have been done and bragged as "superior" to any of the competitors in typical GTM fashion..

Either you have something to sell, or your looking for investors..The people should have been informed that their deposits were going to fund continued R&D of something not yet perfected or produced. IMHO just omitting that little fact, constitutes deceptive business practices..

MMC Racing · 06-10-2014, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

Everyone wants jump on the ponzy/fraud wagon when there is a much easier and more plausible explanation for it all they had good intentions, took a risk, it isn't working out, and know it has turned into a bad decision in hindsight and all they can do is do WHATEVER they have to pull it off and try to keep from ending up homeless. If he had really wanted to screw you all over he would have taken ALL the money up front signed out on a custom products/non-refundable contract got past the initial 6 months, folded up shop and retired in the bahama's instead of going through what to him must seem like slowly cutting of a leg with a rusty butter knife for a year and a half.

Oh poor Sam. Having to live with all his mistakes. Maybe we should start a charity to help the poor guy out. I'll make the first .02 donation to kick it off.

FPenvy · 06-10-2014, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC Racing

Oh poor Sam. Having to live with all his mistakes. Maybe we should start a charity to help the poor guy out. I'll make the first .02 donation to kick it off.

i thought this "group buy" was a direct deposit to his charity/retirement fund to begin with?

rxdo · 06-10-2014, 10:51 AM

I no longer own a Z and i still check this thread at least twice weekly, Ill admit I'm enthralled by the drama, however I really hope that people get either their refund or the product they purchased. I know there are two sides to every story, but come on guys, this is over a year past due, w/o updates there is no excuse for this. The fact that GTM is allowed to remain a vendor on this forum has me

Anyway, hope everyone gets what they want/deserve

Dzel · 06-10-2014, 10:52 AM

I paid in full and received my money in full within 2 weeks. The fact that people now have to wait months for a refund alone shows that GTM is going through issues. This is why I stated and you proved my point when you said that "other" projects are moving along. But you just like everyone else have no idea whats going on with the MHI kit. If Sam was so excited to show you the projects, why did he not show you the progress on the MHI? Maybe because there is none???

All those projects cost money all of us know this, where is he getting that money from? For the last year his biggest source of income was us and the G37 forums. Last I would say 8 months have really been bad for GTM in the sense of PR.

Both GTM and FI came out with the group buy at the very same time. Guess how many kits FI have put out... How many updates have been given... so on and so forth.

Either way I'm over here getting ready to break into the 10's and most of you are still waiting for your money back. That alone shows there is something wrong.

DEpointfive0 · 06-10-2014, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzel

I paid in full and received my money in full within 2 weeks. The fact that people now have to wait months for a refund alone shows that GTM is going through issues. This is why I stated and you proved my point when you said that "other" projects are moving along. But you just like everyone else have no idea whats going on with the MHI kit. If Sam was so excited to show you the projects, why did he not show you the progress on the MHI? Maybe because there is none???

All those projects cost money all of us know this, where is he getting that money from? For the last year his biggest source of income was us and the G37 forums. Last I would say 8 months have really been bad for GTM in the sense of PR.

Both GTM and FI came out with the group buy at the very same time. Guess how many kits FI have put out... How many updates have been given... so on and so forth.

Either way I'm over here getting ready to break into the 10's and most of you are still waiting for your money back. That alone shows there is something wrong.

Just to address this... How many GTM kits have been put out? While you may think it's 0, it's more than FI has put out.

The other thing that I think is funny is that people think GTM is making money on this kit because of the presales. LOOOL. What presales? All 13? Which is now 3 or something. I agree that for sure they are using Peter to pay Paul, but not within this group buy.

Dzel · 06-10-2014, 02:33 PM

No I meant the kits in each respectable group buy

MMC Racing · 06-10-2014, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEpointfive0

Just to address this... How many GTM kits have been put out? While you may think it's 0, it's more than FI has put out.

The other thing that I think is funny is that people think GTM is making money on this kit because of the presales. LOOOL. What presales? All 13? Which is now 3 or something. I agree that for sure they are using Peter to pay Paul, but not within this group buy.

What you know could fill a GTM empty promise..

Dzel · 06-10-2014, 07:19 PM

Sent with tapahoe

06-09-2014, 11:08 PM	#841 (permalink)
Dzel A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 3,884 Drives: 11 370Z PW M6 Rep Power: 23	Stay on topic. If their moving ahead in other areas. That means that the profit made on this group buy is going to unfinished projects. In turn the kit is going and has been on the back burner... That explains a lot. Sent with tapahoe __________________ 10secWS6 IF YOU CAN'T SWING IT THEN DON'T BRING IT! Check out Domestic Performance C.C.

06-09-2014, 11:18 PM	#842 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	what profit? Lets remember here that very few people every paid and probably all but a few refunded, and im positive that this kit is in the 6 digit area for development costs. A more likely scenario goes gtm wanted to make a new, kit, they gambeled on starting a group buy to mass up the r&d funds, so many people signed up that they put a really low price on it, cost escalated on the kit, this lead to the slow down, everyone started refunding pulling money that was already spent on the r&d out of the company, and now they have to cover it all out of pocket slowly as it comes in from other business to complete the kits. They probably have to come up with as much new stuff as they can to drum up the business to cover the defunded groupbuy. DEpointfive0 likes this. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 06-09-2014 at 11:33 PM.

06-09-2014, 11:58 PM	#844 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	i'm not blaming any one, and you are right the original timeline was a disaster, in the end you gotta do what you gotta do for you, I'm just stating what probably hapened. If the group buy had been for 50 people, at a higher price, with a mandatory deposit, and they had originaly said it would take a year longer than they did, these kits would probably be done by now. Another option would have been to finance or plan to pay for the r&d entirely out of pocket the whole time, that way the the kits could have kept rolling along until the eventual release then they could have just brought it out at the full 8-10k price instead of taking a break on each one. I'm not blaming anyone I'm sure everyone involved thought this would go down differently, I just threw out a POSSIBLE way that this all happened. If what I said was the case, then for those still in it you either can wait for them to finish it entirely out of pocket not knowing when that will be(who knows maybe it is almost done maybe it isn't) or you can refund and pull out and wait for either your bank to pay or for gtm to have enough regular buisness to cover it. I don't believe they are or were trying to screw anyone over, they were just banking on things not having as many delays as they did, it was simple over optimism that lead to the group buy funds that should have covered the r&d, production, and then some, being pulled out and taking funds from other projects. That isn't a ponzy scheme it's a risky yet potentially very profitable decision x bad luck x fault in execution. If they manage to get in a position to ship the kits it could still pay off, but all the ** that went down it will be a tough sell at first. At this point the most profitable option they have is to refund those who are still in, cancel the group buy and bring the kit to market at full price when they finish it and accept the blow to the company image and try to recover. If they don't do that and decide to bring out at group buy price to those still in it maybe they can get some sales based on the price but it will still be a smaller number in which case they could recover more with a better margin due to the lower volume and canceling the group buy would still be the sensible choice. Everyone wants jump on the ponzy/fraud wagon when there is a much easier and more plausible explanation for it all they had good intentions, took a risk, it isn't working out, and know it has turned into a bad decision in hindsight and all they can do is do WHATEVER they have to pull it off and try to keep from ending up homeless. If he had really wanted to screw you all over he would have taken ALL the money up front signed out on a custom products/non-refundable contract got past the initial 6 months, folded up shop and retired in the bahama's instead of going through what to him must seem like slowly cutting of a leg with a rusty butter knife for a year and a half. esfourteen likes this. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST** Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 06-10-2014 at 12:37 AM.

06-10-2014, 01:00 AM	#846 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	many initial group buys and preorders are done on the same premises, THAT'S WHY THEY GIVE YOU ***** DISCOUNT, a group of people pays to develop a product in exchange they get a one time only price at a low margin for participating in it. IT's the same concept as offering your car for development in exchange for a reduced price on the final product. Even if they fail unless you can prove in court that they had no intention of making good on the product you are not likely to win a case for fraud and the best you could hope for is getting your money back with no compensation for time or interest Berk did the same thing with the initial exhaust group buy, they had one developed, started a group buy to cover manufacture and tooling costs, it ended up taking longer than expected, the units had problems which took even longer to resolve, went something like 6 months past the initial 3-4weeks, they had to refund several guys, in the end they shipped, everyone got their exhaust and was happy and now they can offer it for normal sale. Are you telling me I should go hit up Berk for my stock options and dividends? If I sent my car as a test car to you so you could come up with a new product are you going to give me a percentage of all future sales? hell no but you might give me a discount. Also like I said that is just one case of what could have happened, maybe the group buy was never intended to fund the r&d at all, and other complications came up that slowed it down and funding was never the issue. My point is there a lots of ways for this to have happened without involving deliberate fraud, Edit:If you are saying you would do this "If I sent my car as a test car to you so you could come up with a new product are you going to give me a percentage of all future sales?" let me know if you ever need a test car partner esfourteen and Staples like this. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST** Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50 Last edited by 1slow370; 06-10-2014 at 01:46 AM.

06-10-2014, 10:52 AM	#851 (permalink)
Dzel A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 3,884 Drives: 11 370Z PW M6 Rep Power: 23	I paid in full and received my money in full within 2 weeks. The fact that people now have to wait months for a refund alone shows that GTM is going through issues. This is why I stated and you proved my point when you said that "other" projects are moving along. But you just like everyone else have no idea whats going on with the MHI kit. If Sam was so excited to show you the projects, why did he not show you the progress on the MHI? Maybe because there is none??? All those projects cost money all of us know this, where is he getting that money from? For the last year his biggest source of income was us and the G37 forums. Last I would say 8 months have really been bad for GTM in the sense of PR. Both GTM and FI came out with the group buy at the very same time. Guess how many kits FI have put out... How many updates have been given... so on and so forth. Either way I'm over here getting ready to break into the 10's and most of you are still waiting for your money back. That alone shows there is something wrong. __________________ 10secWS6 IF YOU CAN'T SWING IT THEN DON'T BRING IT! Check out Domestic Performance C.C.

06-10-2014, 08:38 AM	#847 (permalink)
Dajerseyrat Base Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: NJ Posts: 33 Drives: 67 Camaro Rep Power: 11	Actually my post was an attempt at sarcasm...You quoting the Berk Group buy that went 6 months over the 3-4 week comparison pales in comparison to something that is over a year in the making and has many people worried with rumors of pending bankruptcy.. From past experiences, legitimate "GROUP BUYS" are done for shops to do their buy ins with companies, or companies are releasing their new product that they already have made and want to get it to the market. I have never heard of group buy participants actually funding the R&D and development of a product that was supposed to already have been done and bragged as "superior" to any of the competitors in typical GTM fashion.. Either you have something to sell, or your looking for investors..The people should have been informed that their deposits were going to fund continued R&D of something not yet perfected or produced. IMHO just omitting that little fact, constitutes deceptive business practices..

06-10-2014, 10:51 AM	#850 (permalink)
rxdo Base Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: south east Posts: 74 Drives: 370z-->C7 Rep Power: 14	I no longer own a Z and i still check this thread at least twice weekly, Ill admit I'm enthralled by the drama, however I really hope that people get either their refund or the product they purchased. I know there are two sides to every story, but come on guys, this is over a year past due, w/o updates there is no excuse for this. The fact that GTM is allowed to remain a vendor on this forum has me Anyway, hope everyone gets what they want/deserve

06-10-2014, 02:33 PM	#853 (permalink)
Dzel A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 3,884 Drives: 11 370Z PW M6 Rep Power: 23	No I meant the kits in each respectable group buy __________________ 10secWS6 IF YOU CAN'T SWING IT THEN DON'T BRING IT! Check out Domestic Performance C.C.

06-10-2014, 07:19 PM	#855 (permalink)
Dzel A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 3,884 Drives: 11 370Z PW M6 Rep Power: 23	Sent with tapahoe __________________ 10secWS6 IF YOU CAN'T SWING IT THEN DON'T BRING IT! Check out Domestic Performance C.C.

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