GTM MHI Kit Group Buy Participants...

Chuck33079 · 03-17-2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfeinst

^It's about more power on lower boost, and therefore efficiency per unit of added air and fuel, not the absolute figure. 9psi on two disco potatoes is 9psi on two disco potatoes, whether that's from a GTM kit or an F.I. kit. Difference is in the what makes up the rest of the setup and the quality of the tune.

And the stage 1 FI kit still uses 2860; GTX turbos are an extra-cost upgrade.

Yes, but the cylinder pressure doesn't care about efficiency. There is a limit for everything. Again, we'll see. That's a large torque increase for a stock NA motor.

mfeinst · 03-17-2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck33079

Yes, but the cylinder pressure doesn't care about efficiency. There is a limit for everything. Again, we'll see. That's a large torque increase for a stock NA motor.

Agreed. Like I said before, time will tell.

G37sHKS · 03-17-2014, 11:47 AM

So what youre saying is if I installed Garret GTX55 and have 700 WHP with 10 PSI or so it will be safe for my stock engine?

mfeinst · 03-17-2014, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G37sHKS

So what youre saying is if I installed Garret GTX55 and have 700 WHP with 10 PSI or so it will be safe for my stock engine?

Let's see you fit it in the engine bay, first.

luigi90210 · 03-17-2014, 03:15 PM

torque is what killed stock 350z motors and it will kill our motors eventually

the only thing is how much torque does it take to kill our motor, with the old DE motors, 400wtq would send pistons out the bottom, didnt matter if it was n2o, turbo, or supercharger, the HR and VHR seem to do better with handling torque but there is still a limit to everything, just we dont know that limit yet

phunk · 03-17-2014, 03:21 PM

I was comfortable with the DE at 450tq personally. I ran it that way for a long time and when I tore it down to do the build, the internals and bearings looked perfect! So good in fact, that 10 years later I still have them saved here to look at as a testament.

The VHR not only has slightly beefier parts, but it makes less torque than the DE generally. I am assuming it has something to do with the valve timing / cam profile that is hurting the boosted torque. But it definitely has some to do with the intake manifold... the VHR intake manifold has much shorter runners than the DE... somewhere between 1.5 - 2" shorter.

Between the lower torque, and beefier parts, I think the VHR gives us a far more flexible platform to work with. This is probably why there are VERY few engine builds around here. With the 350z DE... within the second year EVERYONE was building their engines.

We also have a higher redline, giving us more room to take advantage of RPM. I really think 600whp is a pretty safe area if the tune is well done. If I were a better tuner I would have pushed mine further by now. I think I will go a little higher boost in a couple weeks though to see what happens.

COSMO · 03-17-2014, 03:21 PM

Oh yes some of us do... lol

future370zzz · 03-17-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phunk

I was comfortable with the DE at 450tq personally. I ran it that way for a long time and when I tore it down to do the build, the internals and bearings looked perfect! So good in fact, that 10 years later I still have them saved here to look at as a testament.

The VHR not only has slightly beefier parts, but it makes less torque than the DE generally. I am assuming it has something to do with the valve timing / cam profile that is hurting the boosted torque. But it definitely has some to do with the intake manifold... the VHR intake manifold has much shorter runners than the DE... somewhere between 1.5 - 2" shorter.

Between the lower torque, and beefier parts, I think the VHR gives us a far more flexible platform to work with. This is probably why there are VERY few engine builds around here. With the 350z DE... within the second year EVERYONE was building their engines.

We also have a higher redline, giving us more room to take advantage of RPM. I really think 600whp is a pretty safe area if the tune is well done. If I were a better tuner I would have pushed mine further by now. I think I will go a little higher boost in a couple weeks though to see what happens.

But you're using E85 so wouldn't that provide extra protection against detonation and burn cooler than gasoline allowing you to get up to 600whp while putting less stress on the motor compared to gasoline?

I'm thinking of switching over to E85 as well just not sure if I can use regular gas in an emergency situation and what it would take.

phunk · 03-17-2014, 03:53 PM

It is a given that you need to make the power you want to make without running into pre-ignition events first. I don't personally know if anyone has tried to make it to 600+rwhp with 93 on the stock VHR or not.

E85 increases knock resistance so you can run the proper ignition timing to achieve peak cylinder pressure at optimum crank angle. With 93 octane, you might find combustion to loose stability before reaching optimum ignition timing. Which, BTW, isnt the same for both fuels.

faceglide · 03-20-2014, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G37sHKS

So what youre saying is if I installed Garret GTX55 and have 700 WHP with 10 PSI or so it will be safe for my stock engine?

Decreasing cylinder pressure would decrease chances of pre-ignition, so there are bits and pieces to be taken from all that.

Like phunk is saying. We are not increasing the blocks capacity, rather we feel that it is misrepresented as I really do see too many canned tunes or just plain stupid tunes(really 11+psi on 91 octane, even with meth/water, you are asking for it) wrecking perfectly fine engines. I know many of us FI guys are VERY fortunate to have Seb@specialty Z who has tuned Z's for generations and has an outstanding track record with the z34.

Do not know why this bothers people so much. Haters gonna hate, i guess.

faceglide · 03-20-2014, 12:36 AM

Wow...i thought this was Cosmo's thread......can we just let this one die already....totally did not mean to jump into this thread.....FML

Unsubbed

Dzel · 03-20-2014, 10:51 AM

^ this guy.

Sent with TapAhoe

Chuck33079 · 03-20-2014, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceglide

Do not know why this bothers people so much. Haters gonna hate, i guess.

You're assuming people are bothered. It's not hate. Don't get defensive. Everybody who is running that much power is pushing the envelope. That's great. That's how advancements are made. But at some point, even with the best fuel, tune and hardware, a rod pretzels itself just from the torque. No one WANTS this to happen. But as people push limits, eventually someone will FIND the new limit.

elperuano · 03-20-2014, 11:36 AM

^well said.
No one is hating. The FI kit is amazing. Only going by what we've seen so far from others experience those numbers seem really high for a stock block. We just wanna warn you of the possibility with such high (amazing) numbers.

mfeinst · 03-20-2014, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G37sHKS

( Click to show/hide )

You're the one who needs to calm down. Nobody called you a retard. With you calling people "wannabe tough guys", you're doing nothing besides exacerbating a non-existent issue.

03-17-2014, 11:47 AM	#423 (permalink)
G37sHKS A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Dubai Posts: 1,183 Drives: 09 G37S Coupe 7AT Rep Power: 20	So what youre saying is if I installed Garret GTX55 and have 700 WHP with 10 PSI or so it will be safe for my stock engine? __________________ G37 BUILD UNDER CONSTRUCTION

03-17-2014, 03:15 PM	#425 (permalink)
luigi90210 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 1,103 Drives: Classified Rep Power: 15	torque is what killed stock 350z motors and it will kill our motors eventually the only thing is how much torque does it take to kill our motor, with the old DE motors, 400wtq would send pistons out the bottom, didnt matter if it was n2o, turbo, or supercharger, the HR and VHR seem to do better with handling torque but there is still a limit to everything, just we dont know that limit yet __________________ SOLD 370z New Car:classified DD:2011 Mini Cooper S stock

03-17-2014, 03:21 PM	#426 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,668 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974723	I was comfortable with the DE at 450tq personally. I ran it that way for a long time and when I tore it down to do the build, the internals and bearings looked perfect! So good in fact, that 10 years later I still have them saved here to look at as a testament. The VHR not only has slightly beefier parts, but it makes less torque than the DE generally. I am assuming it has something to do with the valve timing / cam profile that is hurting the boosted torque. But it definitely has some to do with the intake manifold... the VHR intake manifold has much shorter runners than the DE... somewhere between 1.5 - 2" shorter. Between the lower torque, and beefier parts, I think the VHR gives us a far more flexible platform to work with. This is probably why there are VERY few engine builds around here. With the 350z DE... within the second year EVERYONE was building their engines. We also have a higher redline, giving us more room to take advantage of RPM. I really think 600whp is a pretty safe area if the tune is well done. If I were a better tuner I would have pushed mine further by now. I think I will go a little higher boost in a couple weeks though to see what happens. fuct, G37sHKS, luigi90210 and 1 others like this. __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph Last edited by phunk; 03-17-2014 at 03:23 PM.

03-17-2014, 03:53 PM	#429 (permalink)
phunk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 3,668 Drives: 370 Rep Power: 974723	It is a given that you need to make the power you want to make without running into pre-ignition events first. I don't personally know if anyone has tried to make it to 600+rwhp with 93 on the stock VHR or not. E85 increases knock resistance so you can run the proper ignition timing to achieve peak cylinder pressure at optimum crank angle. With 93 octane, you might find combustion to loose stability before reaching optimum ignition timing. Which, BTW, isnt the same for both fuels. F.I. Inc. and faceglide like this. __________________ Charles @ CJ Motorsports : Website \| Facebook \| Instagram \| YouTube Home of the 9 second, stock longblock, stock drivetrain 6MT 370z. 9.91 @ 142mph Last edited by phunk; 03-17-2014 at 03:58 PM.

03-20-2014, 10:51 AM	#432 (permalink)
Dzel A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2011 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 3,884 Drives: 11 370Z PW M6 Rep Power: 23	^ this guy. Sent with TapAhoe __________________ 10secWS6 IF YOU CAN'T SWING IT THEN DON'T BRING IT! Check out Domestic Performance C.C.

03-17-2014, 03:21 PM	#427 (permalink)
COSMO A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: FL Posts: 1,816 Drives: 2012 Touring GTM TT Rep Power: 19	Oh yes some of us do... lol

03-20-2014, 12:36 AM	#431 (permalink)
faceglide Track Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: san jose Posts: 550 Drives: '12 370Z FI TT BkChr Rep Power: 38	Wow...i thought this was Cosmo's thread......can we just let this one die already....totally did not mean to jump into this thread.....FML Unsubbed

03-20-2014, 11:36 AM	#434 (permalink)
elperuano A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Southwest FL Posts: 1,374 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 29	^well said. No one is hating. The FI kit is amazing. Only going by what we've seen so far from others experience those numbers seem really high for a stock block. We just wanna warn you of the possibility with such high (amazing) numbers. Dzel and Chuck33079 like this.

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