One thing that is funny is that in that long post i totally disregarded the fact that the 370z is a returnless fuel car from the factory... so this makes the restrictions in the fuel plumbing a compounding issue. Since the pressure is being regulated inside the fuel pump housing, the regulator doesnt even allow you to squeeze the most out of your pump because its essentially being volume regulated.

with a return system where the regulating is done off the rails, the regulator will at least allow the volume to increase to everything the pumps got!

Hmm I wonder who might be selling a fuel return system... lol

I only make them cause ya need them!

My engine/crank, etc are going into the cryo machine today!!!!

I may have a potential member selling his gtm fuel return system/fuel rails and wanted to see who else has this setup? Pros and cons...

Cons: is not CJM's. Just sayin' :)

I understand but CJM is not what this thread is about... :tiphat:

Well...
Pros : seems to work on few built cars. For the right price why not?
Cons : if you ever need help or replacement parts from gtm, well you know how that process will play out. Also CJM make top notch parts at waaaaaay better price.

Yeah good point there... Would it really be worth the price considering gtm's customer service these days.. Not even sure if the gtm system has fuel dampers either...

the down fall of all good companies poor customer service.
its the biggest turn off

I'm the guilty party. I gave cosmogirl an offer on my system, and I'm sure it will move at my asking no matter what he decides. It's OK one way or another. He can show the images and tell of the deal if he wants.

However, I just looked at that system: GTM has little need for followup involvement outside of the billet rail, which isn't a moving part: 775 Bosch injectors, Aeromotive 340 lph pump, AN braided fuel lines, and a gauge with the pressure regulator from another supplier, all included, still far less than the CJM product.

Educate me: Doesn't the regulator act as a fuel damper as well?

Lastly, I know of the GTM turbo thread and that quagmire. However, I have always gotten prompt service from them when I called. You have to call. Sam has always gone the extra mile for me.

Coop

Coop Iam going to give you a call here in a bit about the setup since Iam still interested.. In the mean time here are a few pics from vsr. The heads were rebuilt and resealed, pressure tested and vacuum tested. The pic of the motor is right before going into the cryo machine..

no need for fuel dampers on a returnless system since our cars don't have an issue with it. subarus develop a lean spot at a specific rpm range if they dont have enough lines or damper. braided line also expands and acts as a damper as well so when you add a -6/-8 supply line you are adding one giant damper. lots of guys are running rails with no dampers and not having an issue, it only matters when you have a lean spot that can't be tuned out and always develops at the same rpm, usually on the cylinder furthest from the inlet on the rail, which can also be caused by not enough pressure or pump. returnless it is a bigger issue

Phunk's testing absolutely showed the need for a damper.

edit- and now I can't seem to find the post that explained it in detal.

Ok so I'm going to play devil's advocate here.. I really don't think gtm would create and build a fuel system that would fail. Meaning, if it needed dampers it would have them if not it's not necessary. Coop ran this on his car with no problems. What are the chances of sam chiming in here. lol

:roflpuke2: Really? :roflpuke2:

I'm sure it works just fine. The guy who's selling it to you ran some damn quick times and made gobs of power. If the price is right, I'd go for it.

I thought you might like that... LMAO!!! :bowrofl::bowrofl:

Yeah. The same guy who's had all of his company's threads locked because he can't be bothered is going to give you an answer. The funny part is that he has logged on the forum very recently, but didn't bother to post a single word.

checked his pm's maybe? either way dampers on a return system are not neccesary, I've seen 3000hp cars with no dampers. You know whos gonna tell you that you need them? the guy selling them.

Eh, I've already spent more time looking than I wanted to. :rofl2:

Considering how many sources we've got for fuel rails (2, and one of them is GTM :rofl2:) it's kind of a moot point.

Devil's advocate- Going from my (admittedly often faulty) memory, it was a VQ-specific issue that made the damper necessary. Someone shine the phunk-signal up in the sky. Maybe he'll explain. Or he'll tell me he has no idea what I'm on about and I'm remembering incorrectly. Either is a distinct possibility.

To DAMPER or Not DAMPER!!!!! LMAO!~

Well I'm pulling the trigger on this because it has shown Proven...:tup:

Thanks again Coop!!!

it's not vq specific, its rail harmonics. when the injeters open and close they create pressurewaves in the rail if there isn't enough volume and the waves stack up they can cause flow issues to the injector. it happens in all fuel rails, usually on smaller engines like the subarus because when you have 2 very large injectors in one tiny rail it is easy for them to effect each other. the 370 does not have a real issue with this if you want to double check why not call your tuner and ask him if there was a lean spot at a specific rpm, Usually its between 3-5k for about 500rpm on engines that get it, that he could not tune out by adding more fuel.

Edit: somebody should call cosworth and tell them their rals are garbage cuz they don't have dampers

cosmogirl is making a good choice. This is the system that powered my heavier car to 11.13"et.

I converted the car back to OEM stock after hurting it, because I DIDN'T have an oil system that was capable of 8500rpm, which I pressed looking for the tens. (Ducks for cover....)

It may have had 1000 miles on it max. Anyway, he's getting all that for less than 1/3 of what my invoice was, plus the fuel pod (Does the G37 and 370Z have the same?)

cosmogirl is a good egg. He's going to fly.

Coop

Nope hes gonna have to change the can over to his

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I'm aware that rail harmonics are not VQ specific. I'm saying that (again, going from memory from a post I can't seem to find) the VQ has an issue when the damper is removed.

Are you sure they look identical...??

So yeah ur gonna need the pump instal bracket and return line adapter for a 370

Edit actually u should have the pump bracket already since you were tt so u just need the return line adapter for the z

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The z can has metal struts not lastic and the level sensor is on a black mount. The big difference is the jet pump fittings between the 2 are different

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And again that post was made by the guy selling them

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While I understand that, your little go-round with him on the intake manifold colors our perception of you much as the fact that he's the vendor colors our perception of him. He's brought a lot of good stuff to the communitiy. What have you brought? If you're going to say his post (which still may have never existed:rofl2:) is motivated by selling product, you've got to bring a little more information to the table to say why. He's usually pretty good about showing the data.

Edit- How about we table this until phunk chimes in. We're debating two sides of a post that may not exist :rofl2:

Cosmo, I just **** up your thread every day. :roflpuke2:

I did say why there are plenty of guys running no dampers with NO issues. My point return u dont need them but hey hug those nuts bro just dont tell people they need to spend money on **** with little to no gains

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Alright guys lets not have this thread Locked so that others may use this as a guide...

Ok back on topic yeah cosmo ur gonna need a few pieces to get that kit to work both companies sell them.

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I have sold more fuel rails for the VQ than any manufacturer, guaranteed. Several hundreds of sets. I have more user and tuner feedback than anyone on the matter.

No engine NEEDS dampers. But there are side effects to removing, and the VQ is very sensitive to it. You run into lean spots than cannot be tuned out.

Many DE cars were suffering adverse side effects from removing them, and customers REQUESTED that we make a new rail with dampers. We did as requested, and even offered a several month long exchange program to swap out rails for customers experiencing the side effects. We gave out TONS of rails at hardly over our cost of time and material in exchange for the old rails back to mostly destroy to keep the used fuel rail market from flooding and halting our normal sales.

There are long threads on the issue on the 350z forum, including a member showing datalogs going from no dampers, to 1, to 2, and eventually to 3.

My personal 370z running the a prototype fuel system configuration where I removed just 1 of the 3 dampers already developed a lean hesitation at 3100rpm.

Not all cars will experience it on a level that is noticeable to the driver. Datalogs will show it on any car with them removed. I have never found the ryhme or reason that determines which cars suffer and which dont. We had customers experience it with different regulators, different pumps, and all various injectors.

We had so many customers that DID experience, that it was foolish to continue production of rails that do not have them, when we can just simply prevent the problem from occurring for everyone.

The problem will easily be brushed off by many as a tuning quirk or side effect of a highly modified vehicle. But it is actually completely correctable.

Personally, I dont care one way or another which system cosmo buys. SOMEONE is going to buy this used GTM system, which is one less sale of my system. So... makes no difference who buys it. I actually sort of hope cosmo does... cause he seems like the type that will speak his mind. Now that I am calling attention to the side effects he is going to see, he can simply see them for himself, and later on I will just sell him some rails that can swap right in and fix the problem.

Its a win for all of us!

~2400rpm, ~3100rpm : Pay attention to how the car drives at part throttle light acceleration through these RPM ranges after you install the system.

Perhaps you should write Nissan and tell them about your idea that could same them tens of thousands of dollars every year?

Easy there dude. It was just a question. I still have never seen any parts you have designed for this community. So when you say a person who has contributed is motivated by selling product, you need to back up a statement like that.

A rather ignorant comment of yours. I do not appreciate your attitude about my personality at all. Simply because someone is selling an item, doesn't make them guilty of attempting to CON you.

A 3000hp car without dampers? The harmonics have no relation to the engine horsepower. They are also unnoticed during heavy acceleration because you pass through the "bad" RPMs very quickly. This a driveability issue, and totally unrelated to dyno graphs and horsepower.

We have gone back and updated every fuel system we make to integrate dampers. We did NOT have to revisit our systems that I can hardly keep in stock. We did it for our customers to have a better final product.

You're not correct at all... but lets pretend you were right about anything. Is there any reason to remove them? I mean... you already own them, they are on the engine already... if you can keep something that Nissan thinks your engine needs to run more smoothly, and it doesnt even cost you anything... why not?

There are endless reports of the issue in the DE world. I personally saw the issue on my own VHR, and 2 weeks ago I was contacted by a popular Z tuner about a 370z with GTM rails, hesitating and bucking at the specified RPMs. I guess we will see how that gets fixed?

What is the honest truth... do you NEED dampers on your VQ. No. Will your car run and drive smoother with them? YES, proven several times over now. How bad is it if you don't have any? It is anyone's best guess, as the severity ranges based on currently unknown determining factors. Some customers were completely fed up and annoyed by it, while many say they never noticed an issue. In the end, why leave the slack for it? Just do it right, and its done.

Let me point out the reason I started this thread was to get feedback from others who have (been there and done that) and know what works and what doesn't. That being said I appreciate the input of everyone willing to help but this cannot turn into something that could get it Locked. At this point after reading much debate I may just stick with my original plan and just keep the oem rails and drop my aeromotive 340 pump in. I have a lot of money so far vested in this project and I'm just trying to do thing right this time around... It's a good thing I have a very cool-@ss wife that loves the car as much as I do because if she wasn't I might have to apply at gtm for a job... lol

If the price is right, is there a way to retrofit a damper onto the GTM rails?