52,000 mile re-dyno with greddy TT
 

today i had a chance to put the car on the dyno and see where it is. I have 52,000 miles on it now, and beat on it daily... I was curious if it was down any power or not.

2 years and probably almost 40,000 miles ago, it made 524rwhp at 7.5 psi. After a couple weeks, i turned up the boost to 8.5-9, sometimes a little more. I was also curious what it made up there but never really had a convenient opportunity to find out.

the car is my daily driver. the only thing that has yet to require service was the differential mounts. The rear mount blew out a couple weeks ago from too much no-lift shifting, etc. I swapped the mounts out for whiteline urethane mounts. which feel like stock (except not broken). I do think that my engine mounts are toast though, I feel the engine moving quite a bit. Going to swap in solid mounts in the next week or two. Other than that, I literally NEVER work on this car. Its been a rock.

Anyway, it made 586rwhp at 9psi. I really wanted to push it a tad harder just to hit a 600... I probably should have, would have only needed half a psi of boost and/or a degree of timing. Or I could have just waited out a couple hours until the outside temps dropped 20 degree. But its fine for now.

I can say from experience that running your 370z turbocharged, assuming its well tuned and well sorted, at 550rwhp all day every day, is rock solid reliable. But I do think that if I were to put it into severe duty, such as road course driving... I would dial it back to 500rwhp, maybe lower the rev limiter a couple hundred RPM, and go nuts on the cooling system. I imagine needing the best brakes, suspension, and tire setup to manage that.

EDIT: Re-reading my post makes me realize that I left out some important facts for anyone who is really big into number crunching. I did not gain 62HP with only adding that 1.5psi of boost. I also added a little bit of timing above 6000RPM. So when I first got on the dyno this session, I was making identical power at 7.5psi as I was 2 years ago. When I turned it up to 9psi, I was displeased to see it in the 560s because I was convinced that the car was going to be at almost 600rwhp. I would have sworn it was almost 600, and I had even told some people that I thought it was probably almost 600 by now, so I decided to make it almost 600rwhp by giving it the timing I could tell it wanted anyway.

After adding the timing last night, I didnt think to try another 7.5psi pull. but I would guesssssstimate maybe 540 something at 7.5 now.

Nice numbers

Thanks. Now I gotta make the decision I've been talking about for a long time... To build the motor or not. It's treated me so well, I am not sure i should even touch the dang thing. I really like to swap the pistons and rods and move to the FI turbo kit and crank her out to 800-850rwhp or so... We will see what the future holds!

While I agree that the engine is very strong compared to the previous generation of VQ series but Im not sure if it can handle the power for ever.

Trust me I beat the sh!t out of the car every single time i press the ignition button on and the engine was running like a champ and i almost thought that these internals come forged from factory, but wanted to move on before its too late.

Yes who knows how long it will go... But lets not forget one major factor.. Historically, 75% of built VQ engines never last a year, or anywhere near the mileage I'm at now. With a fully built setup, you're always rolling the dice that your car will never achieve dependability again.

Good to know it can do a hard 40K without major issues

Do you have a build thread/mod list?

I started a build thread but I never completely finished it. I have an album with some pics.

The config is pretty basic..

Greddy TT with Tial BOVs, custom oil line setup, custom wastegate tubing
Aeromotive Stealth 340lph
CJM Fuel Pump Install Kit
ID1000cc Injectors
Custom Earls oil cooler kit, like ($250 in parts)
Greddy Exhaust
UpRev software, tuned by me, on E85
GTR spark plugs (installed last summer, was on original plugs until that)
White line diff mount
HKS boost controller

Then of course irrelevant things like brakes and wheels and springs. OSGiken twin clutch with zspeed CSC

That's just fantastic

I suppose worthy of mention is that I have reached the max of the fuel system. Fuel pressure at the rails is falling off near redline. Not enough to make me back it off.

Keep in mind, this is with e85, which is a lot more fuel than gasoline. With gasoline, my fuel pressure would still be steady.

I will either swap in our CJM stage 0 return conversion, or perhaps go all the way with our billet FPD rails and upgraded stainless pipes.

Also, the stock MAF sensors, in the larger Greddy pipes, are almost maxed out. I'm hitting around 4.7 - 4.8v... So I think I can only go another 30-50hp before the sensors are bottomed out and my fuel enrichment stops. So if I were to build the engine and keep this setup, I would need to move up a tubing size for the MAFs

My car

Love the plate and meaty rear tire setup

Now that's a 370Z done right!!

Nice numbers man!! Great to see its still going strong. :/ mine only made 6k miles :(

Just goes to show how good our motors actually are. I would stick with what you have for now, if it's not broken don't fix it!!!!

I support leaving it alone until you have the cash to drop on building it + the FI kit all in one lump.

Get the engine completely built and ready (with a donor engine) and THEN pull your stock stuff and greddy kit, drop it in.

Glad to see your car is doing so well after so many miles. :tup:

Glad to see this ride still running strong.
I'm over 10k miles at 12lbs and car is still running strong. These motors are very strong with a good install and tune.

The VHR can definitely handle more HP than a DE in stock form. But... I bet a lot of that value is in the much much lower peak torque from the VHR. A DE with the same HP as my VHR, will make 125-150 more peak torque.

Last night, a friends 350z DE with about 40 more HP made 175 more torque (not stock rods/pistons).

My VHR is making about 120hp more than I pushed the stock DE in my 350z, but I think about the same torque.

I'm sorry to hear that. Any idea what went wrong?

How many boosted VHRs have failed so far? I thought it was only 3-4 but perhaps it's more?

I have a donor engine to build... But I don't think ill buy another turbo kit without selling this one first.. That would mean I have more invested in turbo system at once than my 52,000 mile car is even worth!

On my DE I stopped at 8lbs on a gt35r single turbo. But I knew the limit of the DE motor so I was at 420/400.
Witth my setup now I went with what my tuner felt was comfortable. 12lbs at 534/500. There isn't much info on the breaking point of the VHR. I think I'm the highest torque stock block. I drive my car pretty hard as well. My fuel was the limiting factor when tuning. All on pump 93.

Horriable install, fuel feed line and wire harness for the TB was not installed correctly and cause issues then BOOM.:icon14:

What are you doing differently that got you that much torque?


:ugh2: Come on man. You know better than to talk about that here. ;)

Looking forward to making it happen CJ! Thus far it has been great working with you.

Thanks, Tony

Lol sorry I'm used to being on my350z forums.

Freaking awesome!

That is great to hear she is running so strong still!

Do you think that running E85 may be factoring in on longevity? Maybe running cleaner?

This is probably a totally farce question, but I know you are probably one of the, if not the only boosted 70 running 85.

Definitely a factor, I would estimate.

Cooler burn, more wiggle room from the added octane.

I think e85 has contributed for me... But I don't think I am taking full advantage of it either. I feel like its more picking up the slack for me by being more forgiving and allowing more negligence, than it is giving me a major advantage.

I think my car could spool up better and make a tad bit more torque if I knew more about tuning with e85, tuning with Osiris, or both.

Since I am running the fuel system to the edge, which tends to cause cylinder bias, e85's resistance to knock will aid me in surviving through that. But then again it's e85s fault that I'm at the end of the fuel system.

I fuel starve my car ALL the time from hard right hand turns. No, I don't have the CJM road race pump in my car lol. The first batch sold out. E85s resistance to knock has probably helped keep my engine intact through that. Ill come into full boost on an on-ramp and suddenly go lean and starve... I don't feel like a 91 octane setup would survive that after a few times.

Premium gas and water injection should be able to make just as much power almost as effectively? I think that for over 550rwhp on pump gas I would want water injection.

And while I don't have any evidence of it, I feel like regular pump gas is more likely to give you a bad tank of gas than e85. Sure there are winter blends of e85 that are actually e70... However as far as my experience, that is perhaps not common practice anymore? Because the stations I go to do not change for winter. I don't even see why they should... Dead middle of winter and my Z starts up every bit as quick as it does in the summer. A week ago we ran into a guy with an E content tester at a local pump. He came up with e91. Thats awesome. I'm paying 2.70$ a gallon this summer.

Thanks.

I got that plate last year, when they finally revoked my previous custom plate that I managed to get away with for 10 years... FSTASFQ

In 2002 I put that plate on a '94 civic hatch I built as a shop car. I drove the car like 3 times so I moved the plate to my 350z in 2004. Sold the 350z and moved the plate to the 370z.

Just FYI, ever since I showed that plate on the old Z forums, there have been a dozen Z/G guys that started using that as their handle on forums and social networking links etc, and I wouldn't want anyone to think that was me, I never used it for anything but my hotmail or my license plate. I do have my doubts that anyone else was ever able to slip it through their state. I just happened to get lucky with a probably drunk lady at the DMV who thought it was cool.

Nice numbers glad to read that the car is still running strong Charles and has been good to you.


I say build that spare block over the winter I remember when I spoke to you over the phone about it.:tup:

nice to hear about your reliability!

I am not sure I agree with you on this. At least here...E85 isnt used hardly at all by anyone...so the fuel sits for a long time...a lot longer than the pump 91 that is freshly refilled on a daily basis.

I was running E85 in my truck and got one bad tank of it and it went boom in the 1/4 mile..rods shot out all over the place.

Still love E85 but I would like to run a E85 sensor in the fuel line and make sure its really E85 before boosting/driving hard

Out here, the E85 pumps are always being used. The stations that have the E85 pumps, usually have 1 or 2. I would estimate that 1/3 of the time I have to wait for someone who is filling up a flex fuel vehicle.

Water / Methanol injection helps cool the cylinder temperatures when you're running leaner air fuels, adding more timing, or boost. It will also increase the octane rating of the gas. When I went direct port with a 50/50 mix, I saw about a complete point lower on the air fuel ratios compared to without. It went from 11.8 - 12.0:1 air fuel down to about 11.0 - 11.3:1 when spraying.

You're probably right about the motor holding up due to the E85, it really does allow for more timing / boost compared to 10% Ethanol 91 or 93. It's unlikely you would have gotten so many miles out of your motor if you ran that on regular 91 by itself.

The way gas has been lately (especially on the east coast here), 91-93 octane has been horrible and unreliable. If I had E85 available here easily, I would be tuned on it for sure.



Question, what wheel and tire setup are you running?

Well thats nice! I think I just had bad luck one day.

More timing doesnt mean more HP. Correct timing means more HP. So for whatever fuel you are running, to run the correct ignition timing will yield the best results. E85 requires more timing, or you will actually lose power from gasoline. So I wouldnt say that the fact you can run more timing gives it any better HP. For any fuel at all, too much timing starts to reduce power just before it blows up your engine. For whatever fuel you have, your goal is to achieve peak cylinder pressure at a specific crank angle which will be the same for any 2 identically built engines. How much timing advance is required to land at that crank angle is a factor of many things but mainly the burn rate of your fuel... but the best you can do is hit that correct crank angle.

I think that the advantage to E85 lays solely in its knock resistance and cooling, and thats about it. Any stock VHR running the same boost pressure as me from the same turbo kit, is pushing the same airflow, and will make the same power if the tuning is correct. The question is, is combustion going to be stable enough to avoid knock using premium pump fuel. I cannot answer that, since I havent tried. 9psi isnt much, but the compression ratio is pretty high. To make better HP at lower PSI just means that my engine is able to run more efficiently while retaining stability. My Greddy 20g turbos are probably larger than most of the smaller stage kits, already aiding that, and the E85 fuel allows me to tune the engine more efficiently because it remains stable. If I moved to pump gas, I would probably have to run the engine quite a bit richer to keep it cool and stable, therefore reducing efficiency, and thus requiring more airflow, more boost, to make up the power. I might also have to run less than optimum ignition timing advance to reduce burn time and increase combustion stability.

I am sure that with all the tricks and techniques, somebody can match long term HP with me using regular pump gas. I let my A/Fs hit mid 12's on gas calibrated gauge... I can run optimum ignition timing for my fuel because the fuel is stable. Between water injection, running the engine rich for stability, conservative ignition timing, and then more boost... I am sure my numbers are easy to match, I just dont know about making as much at as low of a boost pressure. But if you have boost to spare, then it doesnt really matter what that boost number is.

I will add that everything I say is based on very limited research into E85. Most of it is just gut feelings and impressions based on my experience of running it just one car, my own. I used to dyno tune cars every day when I had a dyno, but it was a lot easier when there was only high or low octane. Now with E85 its entire dynamic is all different and the numbers and curves are vastly different than gasoline and since I dont have the motivation to deep research it, I just use my feelings on it. Anyone who knows EXACTLY what is going on in there, is more than welcome to come school my ***. I am one or two steps from the furthest thing from a full time engine management tuner.

I have 19x11 with 305/30/19 R888s and 18x12 with 315/35/18 Toyo TQ. Neither setup has good enough traction to lay down the law.

Tracking is going to be tested with FI when I'm done. So time will tell. I hope to slam my results in a lot of peoples faces. Since several have stated it won't last two days. Cause none of THERE experience nor ANYONE at that has already proven it yet. :ugh2: Love knowing people make solid statements based on nothing.

Drag Racing (if you call that a sport) is harder on a motor than tracking.