Engine Build / Stroker before FI - Thoughts and Questions

Alstann · 03-25-2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer

VVEL tuning is still in the beta phases and only pro tuners have access currently. They could tune it for you but might be best to wait for more information to come out.
On your build, I would skip the stroker kit as it would be a waste. Focus on building a reliable engine that can achieve the power & performance you want/need. Be that power under the curve, very specific HP/TQ, etc.

A good starting place is: Engine Build Thread

I figure hopefully VVEL will have progressed further by the end of this year. Possibly Haltech will have released their 370z PnP as well!

Considering ultimate power, do you think a built, stock displacement block will be able to handle crazt power, such as 800+? I know it's a crazy number, but hey, if I'm gonna keep the car forever, it would be nice to have loads of headroom.

I've read that thread lots of times - plenty of good info in there. I think once I make some calls to shops and whatnot, I'll be able to come back with some hard numbers.

SS_Firehawk · 03-25-2013, 02:26 PM

if you build it, 4.2 is preferred because it's a square setup and no need to sleeve.

I don't doubt a 3.7 can hit those numbers, but it's waiting for the boost to build up that will really show. With the larger displacement, the turbo spools up quicker, that's the nice perk. Drivability will be compromised if you are waiting on the turbos.

Alstann · 03-25-2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

if you build it, 4.2 is preferred because it's a square setup and no need to sleeve.

I don't doubt a 3.7 can hit those numbers, but it's waiting for the boost to build up that will really show. With the larger displacement, the turbo spools up quicker, that's the nice perk. Drivability will be compromised if you are waiting on the turbos.

That's definitely one of the reasons behind the stroker - less overall lag.

Do you think a nice tune will alleviate the problems behind driveability? Considering all the internals will be balanced, coated, etc., would there be a reason that it would be less driveable until boost?

elperuano · 03-25-2013, 08:24 PM

What shop do u have in mind to do the work for you?

Alstann · 03-25-2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elperuano

What shop do u have in mind to do the work for you?

I listed earlier that all I really know is Rev Works in Orlando and HPLogic in WPB, but to be honest, I honestly don't know what shop to go to down in FL. I was almost tempted to drive my car all the way to Z1 if it guaranteed that a good build would be done. Do you have any recommendations?

SS_Firehawk · 03-25-2013, 08:41 PM

I only say that because the power curve will start looking like a 4 banger with a big turbo lol, just not as bad. Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, OOOOOMMMMMMMFFFFFGGGG!!!!!!! SHIFT OOOOOOMMMMMMMMFFFFFFGGGGGG!!!!

I'm no expert, but I would say if you are chasing over 700whp, go for the 4.2. Most don't play around over 550whp just because the price for power goes way up.

elperuano · 03-25-2013, 09:42 PM

When I'm ready (almost there) I'll be goin to Z1. I have heard too many horror stories when it comes to HP logic. I didnt know they built motors. Thought they just tuned.

Ur best bet would be Z1. I'm actually gonna call em tomorrow n have a chat about my build list.

Alstann · 03-26-2013, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I only say that because the power curve will start looking like a 4 banger with a big turbo lol, just not as bad. Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, OOOOOMMMMMMMFFFFFGGGG!!!!!!! SHIFT OOOOOOMMMMMMMMFFFFFFGGGGGG!!!!

I'm no expert, but I would say if you are chasing over 700whp, go for the 4.2. Most don't play around over 550whp just because the price for power goes way up.

Yeah, most builds I see are about 550whp or less, to be safe. Mr. Squeeze is doing 700whp though, it's very impressive!

I hope I'll be able to make this a reality. Alongside the stroker kit, I'll be wanting to do clutch/flywheel/CSC work, as well as possibly doing a fuel return system. I don't think I'll need valvetrain work since the car won't be revving any faster than stock or anything like that. According to list prices, this would come out to a little over $8k in parts alone, but maybe a deal could be worked out, you know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by elperuano

When I'm ready (almost there) I'll be goin to Z1. I have heard too many horror stories when it comes to HP logic. I didnt know they built motors. Thought they just tuned.

Ur best bet would be Z1. I'm actually gonna call em tomorrow n have a chat about my build list.

Apparently they do some motor work - I heard that a few GT-R's are being built by Jack over there, but I don't have concrete information. I've also heard bad and good things there, so it's wishy-washy. What was your plan for Z1? Drive the car there and fly back for the meantime? I was thinking something along those lines.

elperuano · 03-26-2013, 04:46 PM

Yea that was my plan haha. Haven't heard back from them yet so I'm jus waiting. Will try to call them tmrw.

Mr.Squeeze · 03-26-2013, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I only say that because the power curve will start looking like a 4 banger with a big turbo lol, just not as bad. Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, OOOOOMMMMMMMFFFFFGGGG!!!!!!! SHIFT OOOOOOMMMMMMMMFFFFFFGGGGGG!!!!

I'm no expert, but I would say if you are chasing over 700whp, go for the 4.2. Most don't play around over 550whp just because the price for power goes way up.

No need for a 4.2 for 700whp it can be done on the 3.7 I am close myself,and trust me when I tell you there is not waiting for power.

Sometimes people get to caught up in spool time and power at 2000-3000rpm's. What goo is a tone of power that low if all your going to do is light the tires up, there has to be a balance.

Glokwork · 03-26-2013, 05:07 PM

The stroker really isn't necessary at all man. The 4.5 especially has some heat issues. Theres a car on here that claims 1000whp but no one can produce a sheet over 8??whp and its barely been driven since all the work.

The initial thought of having that much power is cool and all, but you wind up with a fortune invested on a trailer/dyno queen that isn't good for anything.

Mike@GTM · 03-26-2013, 06:25 PM

I'd like to add a few things in here if I may.

The main reason people are concerned with piston speed is not so much the actual speed itself, but the derivative of it (velocity more specifically): acceleration. At top dead center on the exhaust stroke, the piston has to come to a complete stop and reverse direction with no resistance from any gas in the chamber working against it. That puts all the load on the connecting rods. The lower the rod ratio is, the higher this acceleration is at TDC. Generally, people look at a lot of documentation pertaining to OEM limits on piston speed. However, one of the factors in all this is the mass of the piston itself as well as the materials the connecting rod, wrist pin and piston are made of. The higher the tensile strength of the connecting rod, the higher the acceleration can be before the rod starts experiencing fatigue.

The bottom line here is that when we designed our stroker kits, we made sure that the tensile strength of the billet chromoly rods was high enough to withstand the inertial loads generated by the rod ratio at redline as well as the mass of the pistons we use. Also, there is a limit on how high you can rev the stroker engine. Basically, you should not rev it beyond the stock redline for maximum longevity.

One of the many advantages of our stroker kit is the oiling system in our crankshaft. We use a straight shot oiling system as opposed to the factory cross drilled oiling system. The straight shot oiling system improves oil flow to the rod bearings at high rpm while the centripetal forces in the cross drilled crank makes it more difficult for the oil to reach the rod bearings at high rpm.

All that said, when planning a build, it is important to recognize that you have to specify the compression ratio when you build the engine. That means if your plan is to build a forced induction car, you'll need to specify a lower compression ratio. The flip side is that if you do that and don't put a forced induction system on the engine, it'll be a complete dog as a naturally aspirated setup. At the same time, if you decide to go higher compression and then end up putting forced induction on there later, down the road, then you won't be able to run the turbos/superchargers at higher boost where they are more efficient and flow the most air.

Typically, if you have to choose between a built motor and a forced induction kit, I recommend getting the forced induction system first and doing the built motor later on. That way, you can enjoy the additional power on a stock engine then crank it up once you've built the motor and gotten all the additional supporting modifications for the extra horsepower.

Just my $0.02

SS_Firehawk · 03-26-2013, 06:39 PM

Lol, I was looking at your dyno again Squeeze, it's still surprising to see your car build power the way it does. Freak of engineering.

Alstann · 03-28-2013, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

I'd like to add a few things in here if I may.

The main reason people are concerned with piston speed is not so much the actual speed itself, but the derivative of it (velocity more specifically): acceleration. At top dead center on the exhaust stroke, the piston has to come to a complete stop and reverse direction with no resistance from any gas in the chamber working against it. That puts all the load on the connecting rods. The lower the rod ratio is, the higher this acceleration is at TDC. Generally, people look at a lot of documentation pertaining to OEM limits on piston speed. However, one of the factors in all this is the mass of the piston itself as well as the materials the connecting rod, wrist pin and piston are made of. The higher the tensile strength of the connecting rod, the higher the acceleration can be before the rod starts experiencing fatigue.

The bottom line here is that when we designed our stroker kits, we made sure that the tensile strength of the billet chromoly rods was high enough to withstand the inertial loads generated by the rod ratio at redline as well as the mass of the pistons we use. Also, there is a limit on how high you can rev the stroker engine. Basically, you should not rev it beyond the stock redline for maximum longevity.

One of the many advantages of our stroker kit is the oiling system in our crankshaft. We use a straight shot oiling system as opposed to the factory cross drilled oiling system. The straight shot oiling system improves oil flow to the rod bearings at high rpm while the centripetal forces in the cross drilled crank makes it more difficult for the oil to reach the rod bearings at high rpm.

All that said, when planning a build, it is important to recognize that you have to specify the compression ratio when you build the engine. That means if your plan is to build a forced induction car, you'll need to specify a lower compression ratio. The flip side is that if you do that and don't put a forced induction system on the engine, it'll be a complete dog as a naturally aspirated setup. At the same time, if you decide to go higher compression and then end up putting forced induction on there later, down the road, then you won't be able to run the turbos/superchargers at higher boost where they are more efficient and flow the most air.

Typically, if you have to choose between a built motor and a forced induction kit, I recommend getting the forced induction system first and doing the built motor later on. That way, you can enjoy the additional power on a stock engine then crank it up once you've built the motor and gotten all the additional supporting modifications for the extra horsepower.

Just my $0.02

Gotcha Mike. I appreciate you going into the details of the inner mechanics of the motor - ME student here.

I'm worried about longevity with forced induction on the stock block - I know many of us think that the block is quite strong all the way up to 550+ whp or so, and what, 500tq? But, my concern is my driving style and how well that will affect the health of my motor, before I get it built. I'd say each time I take my car out, I'll give it a good working out at least once, and especially when I'll be going to the drag strip, or to local meets.

Granted, I do drive my beater car most of the time, so that does put less miles on the Z. Do you think I could sit at 500-550 whp for an extended amount of time safely? I also understand part, if not most of the safety of the car relies on the tune as well.

Also, I want to contact you about the MHI TT forced induction kit. I'll send you an email shortly about that, unless there is a better way to contact you.

Mr.Squeeze · 03-28-2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Lol, I was looking at your dyno again Squeeze, it's still surprising to see your car build power the way it does. Freak of engineering.

Thanks man

I really feel like there is no reason why the 3.7 cant make good power just like the 3.8 in the GTR. Now I will kindly trade some bottom end power for some for top end like that graph. That car still has 500 torque at 4000 rpm's

Bellow is a GTR with GTX 2867R turbos still 3.8

03-25-2013, 02:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	if you build it, 4.2 is preferred because it's a square setup and no need to sleeve. I don't doubt a 3.7 can hit those numbers, but it's waiting for the boost to build up that will really show. With the larger displacement, the turbo spools up quicker, that's the nice perk. Drivability will be compromised if you are waiting on the turbos. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

03-25-2013, 08:41 PM	#21 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	I only say that because the power curve will start looking like a 4 banger with a big turbo lol, just not as bad. Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, OOOOOMMMMMMMFFFFFGGGG!!!!!!! SHIFT OOOOOOMMMMMMMMFFFFFFGGGGGG!!!! I'm no expert, but I would say if you are chasing over 700whp, go for the 4.2. Most don't play around over 550whp just because the price for power goes way up. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

03-26-2013, 05:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
Glokwork A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 2,657 Drives: 11 370Z MB 6MT Rep Power: 22	The stroker really isn't necessary at all man. The 4.5 especially has some heat issues. Theres a car on here that claims 1000whp but no one can produce a sheet over 8??whp and its barely been driven since all the work. The initial thought of having that much power is cool and all, but you wind up with a fortune invested on a trailer/dyno queen that isn't good for anything. Mr.Squeeze and Staples like this. __________________ Precision Turbo Tial Turbosmart Fast Intentions Seibon Prosport Advan AD08R HKS Hipermax IV Nismo Evo-R PW:JDM UpRev Pioneer Escort Volk CE28N Top Mount Single Turbo 551whp/482wtq@10psi

03-26-2013, 06:25 PM	#27 (permalink)
Mike@GTM Not an active Vendor. DO NOT BUY Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: California Posts: 391 Drives: '13 Hot Lava FR-S Rep Power: 17	I'd like to add a few things in here if I may. The main reason people are concerned with piston speed is not so much the actual speed itself, but the derivative of it (velocity more specifically): acceleration. At top dead center on the exhaust stroke, the piston has to come to a complete stop and reverse direction with no resistance from any gas in the chamber working against it. That puts all the load on the connecting rods. The lower the rod ratio is, the higher this acceleration is at TDC. Generally, people look at a lot of documentation pertaining to OEM limits on piston speed. However, one of the factors in all this is the mass of the piston itself as well as the materials the connecting rod, wrist pin and piston are made of. The higher the tensile strength of the connecting rod, the higher the acceleration can be before the rod starts experiencing fatigue. The bottom line here is that when we designed our stroker kits, we made sure that the tensile strength of the billet chromoly rods was high enough to withstand the inertial loads generated by the rod ratio at redline as well as the mass of the pistons we use. Also, there is a limit on how high you can rev the stroker engine. Basically, you should not rev it beyond the stock redline for maximum longevity. One of the many advantages of our stroker kit is the oiling system in our crankshaft. We use a straight shot oiling system as opposed to the factory cross drilled oiling system. The straight shot oiling system improves oil flow to the rod bearings at high rpm while the centripetal forces in the cross drilled crank makes it more difficult for the oil to reach the rod bearings at high rpm. All that said, when planning a build, it is important to recognize that you have to specify the compression ratio when you build the engine. That means if your plan is to build a forced induction car, you'll need to specify a lower compression ratio. The flip side is that if you do that and don't put a forced induction system on the engine, it'll be a complete dog as a naturally aspirated setup. At the same time, if you decide to go higher compression and then end up putting forced induction on there later, down the road, then you won't be able to run the turbos/superchargers at higher boost where they are more efficient and flow the most air. Typically, if you have to choose between a built motor and a forced induction kit, I recommend getting the forced induction system first and doing the built motor later on. That way, you can enjoy the additional power on a stock engine then crank it up once you've built the motor and gotten all the additional supporting modifications for the extra horsepower. Just my $0.02 tower74 and jesster009 like this.

03-26-2013, 06:39 PM	#28 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	Lol, I was looking at your dyno again Squeeze, it's still surprising to see your car build power the way it does. Freak of engineering. Mr.Squeeze likes this. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

03-25-2013, 08:24 PM	#19 (permalink)
elperuano A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Southwest FL Posts: 1,374 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 29	What shop do u have in mind to do the work for you?

03-25-2013, 09:42 PM	#22 (permalink)
elperuano A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Southwest FL Posts: 1,374 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 29	When I'm ready (almost there) I'll be goin to Z1. I have heard too many horror stories when it comes to HP logic. I didnt know they built motors. Thought they just tuned. Ur best bet would be Z1. I'm actually gonna call em tomorrow n have a chat about my build list.

03-26-2013, 04:46 PM	#24 (permalink)
elperuano A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Southwest FL Posts: 1,374 Drives: G37S Rep Power: 29	Yea that was my plan haha. Haven't heard back from them yet so I'm jus waiting. Will try to call them tmrw.

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