Beefing up the short block for tt
 

I have plans for GTM stage 2 TT. I would like to beef up the short block in hopes to have a very reliable car around 525whp. I understand reliable is subjective and heavily relies on components used, quality install, tune, and your right foot. As many may suggest, I will be fine on oem internals, but for how long? Car is a dd, I would like to do it right the first time.

In for opinions/thoughts on build components or any other thoughts or input you may have.

Pistons- looking into Wiseco, what are thoughts on either 10:1 or 9:1 compression.

Rods- Eagle or K1, which brand has a stronger rep. I have just recently heard of the K1 brand. Familiar with Eagle back in my supra days. I hear the Carrillo is more for full blown race cars and not well suited for street vehicles.

Bearings- I am unaware of any aftermarket Main and Rod Bearings. Thinking oem at the moment. I hear GTM bearings are OEM that are coated for higher strength.

Bolts- ARP head and main studs.

Gaskets- OEM head gasket

Anything else I may have missed?

Thanks

Check out this thread: http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ld-thread.html

Lots of good info in there. Hope it helps!

I have read the above thread, some really good info. Has anyone put some pricing figures together for labor on the basic short block build up. Parts come in around ~$2500.

Labour will cost double that

You really don't need to do that I made 516rwhp 383rwtq stock engine with a GTM SC kit on and it is reliable all day, save your money and put it toward your SC or TT kit.

There are guys running even more power then your posted numbers on oem internals, but what conditon will it be in 5 or 10 years from now. Running high numbers for a few dyno runs is one thing, but putting that power down on a daily basis for extended time period may pose problems that could be prevented. I'd like to do it now rather then later since the engine will be out for the tt install.

I think you are reading into something that's not really there, go thru the forum and see how many people have had failure of their engine b/c of this not many at all,your consern was a question I ask Sam at GTM b/f I bought my kit he said these engine are good stock to about 550rwhp passed that your really pushing it.

I understand what your saying, I have only heard of 1 motor ruined that was fi'd.

That my point these engines are built very strong all you need is a good kit,a good install,and a good tune other than that drive the sh!t out of it.:tup:

My major concern is longevity. Can oem block continue to be reliable 5 or 10 years later. Only time will tell, we have only been fi'd at most for what, 3 or 3.5 years.
But yes, at the current time frame, the vhr has shown to be quite stout.

When I had mine on the dyno John did like 10 full runs back to back b/c there was something he was watching for I just stood there and watched and didn't sweat it at all.:tup:

ask digitonium. he's put like 25,000 miles on his boosted setup (aprox 470whp) with a canned tune.

I would love to build my motor so I could turn the boost up and have peace of mind. With that being said, I have a completely stock motor, clutch, flywheel and csc making 551whp 482wtq all day

OP how do you plan to drive you car ? there are plenty of people with well over 500 whp stock motor and ton's of miles. The reason I ask this is because a friend of mine had a TT 370z making 550whp that blew up. The car was drivin hard for 13k miles and shot a rod right out the side.

^truth
Too many variables here to give OP a straight answer.

street driven year around, I would drive it hard occasionally, but I dont want to have the feeling of something busting when I accelerate full throttle.

If you have the funds to build it now and plan on doing it later down the road build it . You will save on the labor of having to drop the motor twice.The thing you have to keep is the full cost of everthing like clutch gauges fuel system etc.

Here is a straight answer "don't go for maximum power on a stock engine"

I have all the supporting mods needed, all sitting in the closet Just need the tt kit itself and possibly internals. As for fuel I will be fine with the supplied kit, the basic fuel sytem if sufficient to 580 whp, near the max of the stage 2turbos.

Stage 2 is rated for 700hp. If ur goal is 580 then yes you should build it. Although it all depends on how u look at it. I'm at 540/500 and no problems whatsoever. Stock block with supporting mods. Does the extra 40hp justify you spending the extra money to build? If so then by all means.
If it were me I'd build the block and go with a stage 3 and shoot for some good numbers. Look at Mr. Squeeze build and u can do something similar. Built motor will hold up fine.

The basic fuel system that comes with GTM kit is at a safe max around 580whp. Sure it can go a bit further but why push it. The stage 2 turbos max around 620whp right?

My goals are actually around 525whp. My reasons for the short block build is not for higher numbers, but for ultimate engine longevity. I hope to keep the car for 10+ years.

I have read Mr. Squeeze build up, quite impressive. It sort of makes a build up for stage 2 hp levels not seem needed, but as I mentioned before, I want a sort of speak "bulletproof" engine to last the test of time with daily driven exposure.

i understand this logic, there's nothing worse than worrying if rods/pistons are going to go flying when you floor it. Especially if you intend to keep it long term. I'd like to go turbo as well, but why invest so much money if there's a possibility it may not have the longevity?

I say, if the money is no object, then definitely build the motor first. But if the money is the concern, then go SC. just my 2 cents.

SC just isnt fo me....Money is always a concern, but I prefer to do everything right the first time. The basic built short block fully assembled and installed is what, roughly 7k. Just need to put in more overtime;)

Longevity is where the "variables" come in. Ur installer, ur tuner, ur driving habits. Get a good installer/tuner and you will minimize detonation. 525whp is fine. Now if ur gonna baby ur car everyday and not see full boost motor will last a long time. If u follow all the speed limits you most likely wont have a problem.
Now if you're gonna use the stage 2 the way it was meant to be used sparingly you'll be ok.
If ur gonna slam the gas n drop the clutch at every light that turns green ur motor won't last built or stock. If ur gonna hit 150+ everytime ur merging on the highway ur motor won't last built or stock.
If ur gonna redline it from 1st thru 6th ur motor won't last built or stock.

If u use it right and maintain it properly it should last quite awhile. If a 'Vette tries to show u up spank em, big event coming up that happens every few months at the track u can run down the track a few times.

You know your driving habits and how you treat your car better than anyone else here.
Just research, figure out what u want and if its worth it take the plunge!

I've been boosted 5k+ miles at 12lbs and my G rapes almost everything out there from a roll. I have no complaints and I push it hard at 12lbs. Worth every penny.
That being said when my motor does give up(built or stock) I have a backup car and already have funds set aside for the motor to be built.

Good luck OP

elperuano, are you oem internals?

On a side note, whats the optimal compression ratio. Most aftermarket pistons are sold in 9:1, but I hear 10:1 is better suited for the vhr. However, 10:1 needs to be custom ordered. Any input here?

I am stock block :)

You mention reliable for up to 500+whp, but also remember once you crack open the engine you can have even more problems. Just because you have stronger internals does not mean they will last as long as OEM or work 100% fluidly with what you are doing. Many times have I seen a built motor dead 2 months later, and not because of a bad install but because of a quality part just breaking.

Will it be cheaper overall to do a built motor with a TT now, yes, you save on install cost. Will you need it in the next 3-5 years? Probably not with how you plan to drive. Also, a good investment is a boost controller which will allow you to run up boost to a nice 500whp for those fun runs and then dial it back for everyday driving.

Perhaps it might be a wiser to get the gtm stage 1 short block rather then me bringing parts to a shop elsewhere and having it assembled/balanced.

I have the new greddy profec ebc. I will be running internal wastegates. Not sure if I will experience boost creep or not with stage 2. I am aware of the creep issues on the stage 1 internally gated though. Will be 3" downpipes to 3" dual exhaust.

C
This is a little bit misleading yes a built motor can fail , most of the time its because of not being assembled properly. A engine that is built by a good machinist and uses quality parts will not fail .

I have 10 k miles 600whp low boost on my build motor built by a local machinist that I trust.

Soon to be 700whp high boost .

I am not saying 9/10 die, I am just saying he wants reliability and a built motor does not always equal reliability when it comes to cars. Especially if all he wants is ~500whp for daily driving it seems like a waste and could cause more headaches. A good tune, install and boost controller would be an overall better investment where he can drive daily on a lower boost setting and then turn it up for fun runs. Plus in 5 years time he might be onto a new car, different path with the Z, or something else and the built motor was a waste.

I ran the OEM components up to 591 hp and at that point the rods bent like an S. Fortunately no damage, but that happened. 550 is really close to that.

Lower end built to exactly your query: K1 rods, ARP studs, OEM gaskets and bearings, and Wiseco 9.0:1 pistons. Had the rotating assembly/pistons/rods balanced as well.

This has the ability to sustain more than 600whp now, with upgraded fuel components (which I also did.)

I thought the 9:1 pistons would be doggish. No way. The engine has SO much torque that after the tuner added ignition timing there, it drives as responsive as it used to. Not a notable loss at partial throttle.

My experience. It also costs a FORTUNE to remove engine to do all this. I would lock it at 525whp and ride into the sunset if you don't plan on pushing further. :)

Coop

I am always willing to accept constructive criticism and appreciate all that put forth info into this thread.

I was primarily looking for feedback on build components itself, however much of the feedback here is geared towards scrapping the idea of built short block and keeping the oem block.

It is always a risk tearing the motor down and rebuilding. As stated just because your putting forged components in, if install or tolerances are not on spec, disaster will come shortly later. Many are running more then my goal on oem internals; maybe I should just set aside funds for the block if it is needed down the road. Yes, it may or may not be needed, I may end up spending more money down the road on labor...decisions decisions...

I understand where your coming from that's the reason I said your post was a little bit misleading. What your saying here is very true good install and a tune can go a long way.

It comes down to if he is going to be driving him self crazy worrying if its going to blow up or not then build it.

Setting money aside just is case is a wise choice keep your eye out for a spare block. I got lucky and found a spare long block for really cheap right here on the forum, I grabbed it even though my stock one is built already.

i have a question. first off this thread has had lots of good questions and info so far so :tup:

my question is with a stage 2 kit and a stock block you guys are saying 550WHP is about the max "safe" power? i keep going back and forth on if i'm going FI or not based on my upgraded transmission price woes. my real goal is to get a stage 2 TT kit and run 10-12PSI hopefully hitting 500WHP minimum. i do DD my car in the warm months. right now it's put away for winter. i drive pretty normal to and from work but i do take it to the 1/4 mile strips once or twice a month for a couple runs. i wonder ifi can get away with that and keeping a stock block?

Ultimately, If I decide to run oem block, I will probably lock it in around 450-470whp. Running off an ebc, I suppose the lowest boost I could run in 6.5-7psi?

From various dyno graphs posted, the stage 2 pushing 10 psi + on stock compression exeeds 500whp easily.

i'm just hoping if i go that route with TT i want 500WHP atleast but not trying to dump 3k more into the block when i'll be dropping 6k on the GTM upgraded transmission since i have a 7AT

I'm stage 2 but I'm 6mt. 500whp will not be a problem. Read my earlier post about driving habits and u could use that as a guideline somewhat. These motors r pretty strong already. I take good care of my car, that being said I use the stage 2 the way it was meant to be used! I have 1 map only and it's set at 12lbs. Well I got 2 maps but I'll never turn down boost! I'm always itching to turn it up!

i'm probably like you then because i dont ever see myself running a "low boost" map at like 5-6 psi. just set it at 10-12psi to hit the numbers/performance i want without going too high and blowing my engine lol