GTM Performance Engineering: VQ37VHR Engine Build 700HP Power Package

conmam · 09-06-2012, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I agree with that. Probably oil pump, or excess water in the Gas.

Either way, I wouldn't use any of the old parts and put new gas in the car.

No way oil pump failure could have crushed the starter and shear the flywheel bolts. Oil pump failure seizes and cause damage to the bottom end mostly. Over revving again, in no way can crush the starter and shear the flywheel bolts either.

conmam · 09-06-2012, 03:45 AM

Detail of engine complication and destruction without a properly designed and installed harmonic balancer:

1) Elastic Deformation
Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.

2) Natural Frequency ( Resonance frequency )
All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its "natural frequency," that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure).

3) Fatigue Failure
Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure.
The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct.
1) The vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine.
2) The vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper and is the primary subject of this paper.

Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency)
Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft.

This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load.

Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves
Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft.
The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name "harmonic damper" originates.

Critical RPM's
When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM's. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM's

.
Major and Minor Critical RPM’s

Major and minor critical RPM's are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the "major criticals". Conversely, the "minor criticals" exist at RPM's that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft.
If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have witnessed front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and clutch covers coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement.

Harmonic Dampers
Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. This heat

should be dissipated in order to keep the damper at optimal operating temperatures. While there are various types of torsional vibration dampers, most Japanese and BMW engines are primarily designed with "tuned rubber" dampers.

It is also important to note that while the large springs of a dual mass flywheel absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a very small reduction in vibration. That's why there is zero problem when you replace the 370Z dual mass flywheel with a lighter quality flywheel, such as Jim Wolf Technology one.

In addition to the crankshaft issue, underdrive pulley size can cause slowing down the accessories below their designed speeds, particularly at idle. Slowing the alternator down can result in reduced charging of the battery, dimming of the lights, and computer malfunctions. Slowing of the water pump and fan can result in warm running, while slowing of the power steering can cause stiff steering at idle and groaning noises. This is NOT acceptable from a reliability standpoint. It is possible to implement design corrections and avoid these scenarios, but this would require additional components and/or software.

Tward · 09-06-2012, 12:38 PM

Way over my head. I read this in Psychology class, and had more fun reading about this rather than listening to my professor ramble on lol.

Cmike2780 · 09-06-2012, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tward

Way over my head. I read this in Psychology class, and had more fun reading about this rather than listening to my professor ramble on lol.

I understood "aftermarket pulley, make engine go BOOM!"

conmam · 09-06-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cmike2780

I understood "aftermarket pulley, make engine go BOOM!"

Yeah.... Sad but true. Years ago, I did not want to believe it myself. I was going to purchase this kind of underdrive pulley for my 95 Supra 2JZ-GTE. But when my friend's E36 motor crashed violently , then I had to sit down and analyze the situation and found out about this harmonic issue.

Motion Lab · 09-11-2012, 06:02 PM

Nothing better than a true harmonic balancer. I personally use the Fluidampr for my 2006Sti. I feel its even more important if you have other lighten components like a flywheel. These hollow "lightweight pullies" just seem like a poor idea.

Thanks,
Alex Goodwin
AlexG@motionlabtuning.com

RCZ · 09-13-2012, 11:50 AM

Damn that's a lot of damage. Whether the harmonic balancer effect is real or not, pulleys are not worth this kind of risk. I guess I got lucky because I used to have the same thing on my car.

03WhiteGT · 10-08-2012, 09:31 AM

It's been four months; any progress / updates?

Thanks,
Jeremie

SS_Firehawk · 10-08-2012, 01:27 PM

I still don't think an aftermarket pulley did this. The stock crank pulley is not a harmonic balancer or damper. It doesn't look like one, it looks like a pulley to me. Seriously, it only has a small rubber gasket and that is it. The pictures, story and diagram are great... but we aren't removing a harmonic balancer and putting on a crank pulley, we are removing a crank pulley and putting on a lighter crank pulley. The crank and pulley fusing together doesn't cause motor failure either. Now a lightweight crank failing, I have seen on this motor.

conmam · 10-08-2012, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I still don't think an aftermarket pulley did this. The stock crank pulley is not a harmonic balancer or damper. It doesn't look like one, it looks like a pulley to me. Seriously, it only has a small rubber gasket and that is it. The pictures, story and diagram are great... but we aren't removing a harmonic balancer and putting on a crank pulley, we are removing a crank pulley and putting on a lighter crank pulley. The crank and pulley fusing together doesn't cause motor failure either. Now a lightweight crank failing, I have seen on this motor.

" The stock crank pulley is not a harmonic balancer or damper ", really ?? Think VERY hard again. Take one out of your car and inspect VERY carefully of its construction and consult the automotive engine design engineers if you are still in doubt.

For engine that have internal balance shaft, you do not need a harmonic balancer. But for most motors out there without internal balance shafts, everyone of them come with crank harmonic balancers.

SS_Firehawk · 10-08-2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conmam

" The stock crank pulley is not a harmonic balancer or damper ", really ?? Think VERY hard again. Take one out of your car and inspect VERY carefully of its construction and consult the automotive engine design engineers if you are still in doubt.

For engine that have internal balance shaft, you do not need a harmonic balancer. But for most motors out there without internal balance shafts, everyone of them come with crank harmonic balancers.

I'm not an idiot and you are taking this out of context. I was very OBVIOUSLY talking about this motor. I know what a harmonic dampener, balancer (whatever you feel like calling it) is, how it works, and what they look like. The VQ37VHR motors are internally balanced using counterweights int he crankshaft and DO NOT come with an external dampener. I've inspected my old crank pulley, it looks just like my lightweight pulley, just heavier. Some manufacturers do use both an internally balanced crank and an external dampener. A good example are the LS motors. My explanation is not copied and pasted, but I'll be more than happy to tell you your wrong by citing examples of how motors can be balanced. And if needed, I will out research you at every angle to backup my argument unless there is irrefutable evidence telling me I am wrong. I challenge you to try.

Edit: More food for thought. How do you spin a motor up to 7500 RPM and not balance it internally? How do you spin a motor at 7500 RPM and have a heavy A$$ dampener hanging off of it?
The Nissan Engineers answered this question for you.

I'm not saying your whole copy and pasted explanation is incorrect, what I am saying is that I do not believe an aftermarket crank pulley caused this failure by allowing resonance to occur in the engine.

370Z Purist · 10-08-2012, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I'm not an idiot and you are taking this out of context. I was very OBVIOUSLY talking about this motor. I know what a harmonic dampener, balancer (whatever you feel like calling it) is, how it works, and what they look like. The VQ37VHR motors are internally balanced using counterweights int he crankshaft and DO NOT come with an external dampener. I've inspected my old crank pulley, it looks just like my lightweight pulley, just heavier. Some manufacturers do use both an internally balanced crank and an external dampener. A good example are the LS motors. My explanation is not copied and pasted, but I'll be more than happy to tell you your wrong by citing examples of how motors can be balanced. And if needed, I will out research you at every angle to backup my argument unless there is irrefutable evidence telling me I am wrong. I challenge you to try.

Edit: More food for thought. How do you spin a motor up to 7500 RPM and not balance it internally? How do you spin a motor at 7500 RPM and have a heavy A$$ dampener hanging off of it?
The Nissan Engineers answered this question for you.

I'm not saying your whole copy and pasted explanation is incorrect, what I am saying is that I do not believe an aftermarket crank pulley caused this failure by allowing resonance to occur in the engine.

I still believe that the crank pulley houses some dampening. The only way to tell definitively is to cut it apart.

As for why the motor exploded, it probably has a combination of issues, such as running full boltons with no tune, probably being driven into the ground, and the fact that the pulley was replaced.

roplusbee · 10-09-2012, 01:01 PM

So what happened to the build?

370Z Purist · 10-12-2012, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roplusbee

So what happened to the build?

I would think four months is just enough time to grab the new block from Nissan and perhaps start tuning and dynoing right around this point.

I'm sure he's still trying to get his wallet back together at the moment...

09-06-2012, 12:38 PM	#63 (permalink)
Tward Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: North Little Rock, AR Posts: 318 Drives: 09 Nissan 370z BS M6 Rep Power: 14	Way over my head. I read this in Psychology class, and had more fun reading about this rather than listening to my professor ramble on lol. __________________ Nismo S - Tune Body Kit/ UAM Fenders / Fast Intentions CBE 12/ Stillen CAI/ PWD JDM Shift Knob/BlueBat Vinyl' R.I.P Garrett Uekman

10-08-2012, 01:27 PM	#69 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7335	I still don't think an aftermarket pulley did this. The stock crank pulley is not a harmonic balancer or damper. It doesn't look like one, it looks like a pulley to me. Seriously, it only has a small rubber gasket and that is it. The pictures, story and diagram are great... but we aren't removing a harmonic balancer and putting on a crank pulley, we are removing a crank pulley and putting on a lighter crank pulley. The crank and pulley fusing together doesn't cause motor failure either. Now a lightweight crank failing, I have seen on this motor. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

10-09-2012, 01:01 PM	#73 (permalink)
roplusbee A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Killeen, TX Posts: 2,360 Drives: 2007 350Z NISMO Rep Power: 23	So what happened to the build? __________________ 2007 350Z NISMO #0618: Zerolift \| UPREV \| F.I. \| Greddy \| Competition Clutch \| Injector Dynamics \| Aeromotive \| Pioneer \| JL

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09-06-2012, 03:45 AM	#62 (permalink)
conmam Base Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Billings, Montana Posts: 164 Drives: 370Z Touring 6MT Rep Power: 15	Detail of engine complication and destruction without a properly designed and installed harmonic balancer: 1) Elastic Deformation Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible, this is not true. When a force acts on a crank it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this movement is often very small, it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions. 2) Natural Frequency ( Resonance frequency ) All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate (vibrate) at when struck with a hammer. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is its "natural frequency," that is dictated by the size, shape and material of the instrument. Just like a tuning fork, a crankshaft has a natural frequency that it vibrates at when struck. An important aspect of this principle is that when an object is exposed to a heavily amplified order of its own natural frequency, it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces (fatigue failure). 3) Fatigue Failure Fatigue failure is when a material, metal in this case, breaks from repeated twisting or bending. A paper clip makes a great example. Take a paper clip and flex it back and forth 90° or so. After about 10 oscillations the paper clip will break of fatigue failure. The explanation of the destructive nature of power pulleys begins with the two basic balance and vibration modes in an internal combustion engine. It is of great importance that these modes are understood as being separate and distinct. 1) The vibration of the engine and its rigid components caused by the imbalance of the rotating and reciprocating parts. This is why we have counterweights on the crankshaft to offset the mass of the piston and rod as well as the reason for balancing the components in the engine. 2) The vibration of the engine components due to their individual elastic deformations. These deformations are a result of the periodic combustion impulses that create torsional forces on the crankshaft and camshaft. These torques excite the shafts into sequential orders of vibration, and lateral oscillation. Engine vibration of this sort is counteracted by the harmonic damper and is the primary subject of this paper. Torsional Vibration (Natural Frequency) Every time a cylinder fires, the force twists the crankshaft. When the cylinder stops firing the force ceases to act and the crankshaft starts to return to the untwisted position. However, the crankshaft will overshoot and begin to twist in the opposite direction, and then back again. Though this back-and-forth twisting motion decays over a number of repetitions due to internal friction, the frequency of vibration remains unique to the particular crankshaft. This motion is complicated in the case of a crankshaft because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furthest from the flywheel or load. Harmonic (sine wave) Torque Curves Each time a cylinder fires, force is translated through the piston and the connecting rod to the crankshaft pin. This force is then applied tangentially to, and causes the rotation of the crankshaft. The sequence of forces that the crankshaft is subjected to is commonly organized into variable tangential torque curves that in turn can be resolved into either a constant mean torque curve or an infinite number of sine wave torque curves. These curves, known as harmonics, follow orders that depend on the number of complete vibrations (cylinder pulses) per revolution. Accordingly, the tangential crankshaft torque is comprised of many harmonics of varying amplitudes and frequencies. This is where the name "harmonic damper" originates. Critical RPM's When the crankshaft is revolving at an RPM such that the torque frequency, or one of the harmonic sine wave frequencies coincides with the natural frequency of the shaft, resonance occurs. Thus, the crankshaft RPM at which this resonance occurs is known a critical speed. A modern automobile engine will commonly pass through multiple critical speeds over the range of its possible RPM's. These speeds are categorized into either major or minor critical RPM's . Major and Minor Critical RPM’s Major and minor critical RPM's are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another in producing large vibrations, whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Hence, the important critical RPM’s have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. These critical RPM’s are know as the "major criticals". Conversely, the "minor criticals" exist at RPM's that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft. If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have witnessed front pulley hub keys being sheered, flywheels coming loose, and clutch covers coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and/or gearbox replacement. Harmonic Dampers Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity. This heat should be dissipated in order to keep the damper at optimal operating temperatures. While there are various types of torsional vibration dampers, most Japanese and BMW engines are primarily designed with "tuned rubber" dampers. It is also important to note that while the large springs of a dual mass flywheel absorb some of the torsional impulses conveyed to the crankshaft, they are not harmonic dampers, and are only responsible for a very small reduction in vibration. That's why there is zero problem when you replace the 370Z dual mass flywheel with a lighter quality flywheel, such as Jim Wolf Technology one. In addition to the crankshaft issue, underdrive pulley size can cause slowing down the accessories below their designed speeds, particularly at idle. Slowing the alternator down can result in reduced charging of the battery, dimming of the lights, and computer malfunctions. Slowing of the water pump and fan can result in warm running, while slowing of the power steering can cause stiff steering at idle and groaning noises. This is NOT acceptable from a reliability standpoint. It is possible to implement design corrections and avoid these scenarios, but this would require additional components and/or software.

09-11-2012, 06:02 PM	#66 (permalink)
Motion Lab A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 2,676 Drives: Nissan 370Z Rep Power: 18	Nothing better than a true harmonic balancer. I personally use the Fluidampr for my 2006Sti. I feel its even more important if you have other lighten components like a flywheel. These hollow "lightweight pullies" just seem like a poor idea. Thanks, Alex Goodwin AlexG@motionlabtuning.com

09-13-2012, 11:50 AM	#67 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1119	Damn that's a lot of damage. Whether the harmonic balancer effect is real or not, pulleys are not worth this kind of risk. I guess I got lucky because I used to have the same thing on my car.

10-08-2012, 09:31 AM	#68 (permalink)
03WhiteGT Base Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 31 Drives: 2008 Corvette Rep Power: 14	It's been four months; any progress / updates? Thanks, Jeremie