Well I can tell you one thing, it has absolutely nothing to do with UpRev.

Because I've probably already got every carbon fiber body panel available and a braille battery in an effort to save weight. All I'd say I'm missing are some carbon seats and wheels. At this point I'd rather get more power.

^ how much weight did you take off the car going with all those carbon pieces?

+1 ^^

I want to see what the VVEL will do for my N/A set up. Especially between 6900 to 8100 rpm range. Thats were i loss power. If it gave me 15 to 20 more RWHP it would put me at 324 to 330 SAE RWHP. or 333 to 342 satndard RWHP. Now that would be a nice gain especially with my 4.08 gears.
Z

:shakes head:

Since VVEL tuning is a different topic, maybe we should start a new thread so more people can get involved in the discussion..

Or maybe that's a rook statement too.

Since your thread was answered and this thread is now going somewhere now, its probably a good idea to let it run its course and stay relevant don't you think?

So yes.

Ya, no need for bashing anymore guys. It really gets in the way of those seeking results/hp & tq numbers. I wonder if this stg.2 kit will get close to 500hp with the VVEL tuning. Should this kit be safe to run on the stock block, or will the engine need to be built to support said power?

It'll be fine in terms of reliability on the stock block. Torque is thing that breaks ****.

Do others believe that over 400 TQ is possible with the stg.2 kit?

it SHOULD be over 400 TQ.. more like 430 and up..

a Stage one can do 350 tq with stock VVEL and stock exhaust

so imagine what stage 2 can do with GTM VVEL controller and after market exhaust..

i have feelings that GTM will make exhaust manifold recommended for SC:D either long tube or short i dont care.. but I do have feelings!!

When get it installed up here I will post the #'s. its going to be a few monrths.
But hopefully i will have the traction conrol unit installed before the SC.
As for the 7 AT. Im sure that the i will be the first one to really break one witht the stage 2. I have the GTM Torque Converter installed last week. Can not say how well it will launch my car as the is too much snow up here now. For some reason the car has a deeper tone to it and the shifts feel stronger.
Coming soon will be the VB.
The VVEL would be nice too have to try on my N/A full bolt on setups, but realistically i feel that's it will be along time till we see it. (its a major project to put it into production).
Z

Hey Z, I was just wondering if ur looking for stg 2 SC then why you just didnt go TTed ur car and have the power than stg 2 will offer?

any experience with TT?

You will probably be capable of making enough power to need to build the block with the stage 2. The thing with a supercharger that you have to remember is that it takes horse power to make horse power. The supercharger is not "free" energy like a turbo. Meaning to achieve 500 whp the supercharger actually has to make more at the crank to overcome the parasitic loss caused by the supercharger itself. That means 500 whp (depending on the exact chargers efficiency) could equal enough horse power needed out of the motor to require an engine build.

Not to stir the pot or anything of the sort, but it may be a tidbit of info that can answer your question. Last time I looked into it, the SC unit Stillen uses flows more CFM than the GTM stage 2 unit. Considering the stillen kit doesnt need an engine build, I think its safe to say you guys wont either. Again please for gods sake don't take this comment out of context.

Haha ^^ Thanks for the info. :tiphat:

Watup slimmm I see u inhere lol

I doubt you will need an engine build...remember the SC doesn't have that big rush of power the TT kit has so its not gonna be beating the crap outta the internals...it should be fine..

Rotrex units are HIghly efficient..i believe the most efficient units available..stage 1 GTM SC kit has flow rate of .55 Kg/s and stage 2 will have .63 Kg/s...it is indeed a larger unit.

I hope the stg.2 will be more efficient than the stg.1 when it comes to the addition of long tube headers, whether that be from Fast Intentions or GTM.

Did someone mention CFM in a forced induction thread? That is one of the most misleading measurements you could use when talking about forced induction. If you were discussing carburetors on a naturally aspirated hot rod, then CFM is appropriate because we can all assume you are talking about atmospheric air density. However, since we're discussing compressed air, CFM is useless for comparing performance unless you specify air temperature and pressure (assuming you know what to do with that information).

What you need to be comparing is mass flow rate in either kg/s or lbs/min. That takes things like compressor efficiency, pressure ratio, etc. into account. As far as I can tell, Vortech does not publish their mass flow rate for their superchargers, whereas Rotrex does.

However, Vortech does rate their superchargers on horsepower. Since horsepower is a function of air and fuel combustion (among many other variables), we can calculate the maximum mass air flow rate of their supercharger using a old rule of thumb that'll get you pretty close. For every 1lb/min of air flow, you get about 10hp.

On Vortech's website, they say that their V-3 Si Trim blower pumps 775hp worth of air. Therefore, that should be roughly 77.5lbs/min of airflow (give or take).

The Rotrex C38-91 flows .63kg/s of air. 2.2lbs/kg yields 1.4lbs/s. 60 seconds / minute yields 84lbs/min. Which is about 840hp worth of air, which is way more air than the Vortech.

Now, just because these blowers are capable of flowing a buttload of air, doesn't mean you are going to see that power on a dyno graph. Another intelligent individual already mentioned one reason, and that is the supercharger consumes power to flow that air. The other reason you won't see that much power is VVEL has so much overlap at high rpm (where the blower is pushing the most air), that a significant portion of that air is blowing right through the engine.

So, at the end of the day, our stage 2 supercharger combined with our VVEL tuning solution will make a lot of power. So much so, you'll want our traction control system too. ;)

Great info, Mike. Thanks. Would the Stage 1 SC benefit from VVEL tuning too?

I was soo set on getting the GTM TT kit but this stg.2 SC + VVEL tuning really has sparked my interest. Of these 2 set-ups, which do you guys think will be more reliable in the long run?

I experimented with my intake / exhuast variable timing on a different platform, the 'blow through the engine' comment is actually very well decribed, I have actually noticed the totally different sound of the engine combined with the drop off in power when this is happening as compared to an optimzed I/E cam set up.
My vehicle was running single turbo at 25 ish PSI but hell what a difference a properly balanced system can make to the TRQ hit and hanging on to that power up top.

Very interesting stuff

Absolutely. That is shown with the 350Z HR Supercharger kit we did. We made more boost with the same pulley and more power as well (487whp) simply because we are able to tune the exhaust and intake cam phasing to match the supercharger on the HR motor.

In terms of reliability, the key is proper engineering, proper installation and proper tuning. A properly installed and tuned GTM supercharger kit will be just as reliable as a properly installed and tuned GTM TT kit. We do our best to ensure that our systems are engineered properly and that they perform as advertised. When we do encounter an issue, we get it fixed properly and get you back on the road ASAP.

In terms of which system will be best for you, that depends on personal preference. I personally love turbochargers and was hooked that first time boost came on and set me back in my seat. For some people (like my wife), that scares the living crap out of them and they'd rather have the smooth, linear power delivery of a supercharger. Not to say our supercharger won't set you back in your seat, or that our TT kit isn't smooth. The power delivery is just different, just like fish is fish, some like it cooked and others like it raw.

Also bear in mind that our TT kit is scalable, so if you ever get tired of 500+whp, you can always get more. :D

Thats great info Mike, Had no idea one manufacturers CFM could be different than another manufacturers measure of CFM.

Damn, makes my decision even harder, lol will the stock block be able to handle 500+hp, the reason I ask is because the car is my Daily Driver.

Christian and his TT G37 was running a good amount over 500+ to the wheels daily driven and his car is holding up great.

^Thanks man, good to know. It really seems like GTM is at the forefront of 370Z tuning & forced induction. :tup: I'm looking forward to seeing any new goodies that come outta GTM in 2011. Mike, any word on GTM long tube headers? ;)

So if I were to get a stage 1 kit, is there any more power to be had out of that C38 Rotrex unit in the form of a smaller pulley or is the stock pulley it ships with already maximizing the blower's efficiency?

I guess there is no plan in the works for the new SC + CARB certification? I was considering stage 2 because I was hoping it would be possible to revert back to something CARB certified easily once that time comes.

The pulley that ships with the kit is the maximum boost pulley. It's rated for 14psi, but our motors only see 8psi of that.

Thanks Staples, that is good to know. With the adjustability with the VVEL controller allow higher boost on the same supercharger after adjusting overlap then?

Bingo :tup:

Why does the motor only see 8lbs? Intercooler and piping?

No its not the intercooler or piping its VVEL to much over lap at high RPM's is causing air to blow by.

the problem with the calculation of the vortech unit you posted based on horsepower is that the vortech horsepower ratings are compensated for drive loss so the amount of horsepower it actually bumps is higher than the figure they post. also their cfm values can more accurately be turned back into airflow assuming non apocalyptic weather conditions rather than a horsepower number that is affected by many more variables than just temperature and pressure. the cfm value assumed to be a draw value at average temperature conditions 100kpa, 70degrees Fahrenheit, with a standered weight of air at STP of .0807 lb's per cuft, through the ideal gas law leads you to about 86lbs a minute of airflow. The point of hp ratings on superchargers is that it accounts for the airflow of the unit and the parasitic losses all in one number.

the issue no one is really talking about is that all that crap doesn't matter when you consider that it will cost you a freakin truckload of cash to build a motor capable of handling more than 500hp supercharged so both units will work fine(unless you feel the need to spend almost 10k to sleeve your block then you can care). the gtm stage1 is a good setup that focuses on response which with a centrifugal is key because they are designed to suck balls in this department, and once sam gets the cvtc at least figured out more power out of the stage one unit won't be a problem until you spend the money to build the block then you need an upgrade.

Edit: but if the vvel controller never surfaces (which i'll be damned if it doesn't) then the stage 2 or up pullied vortech are worth the money in order to make up for the airflow lost to the valve overlap.

Also god damn HKS for locking the VPro powerwriter softeware down to needing a dongle (and for being a piggyback in the first place). some of us don't like the idea of having to pay big cash if we wanted to even get our car to the tuner hell two trips and you double the price of the ecu Grr

From a purely academic perspective, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, it has been our experience that Vortech is very generous with their power ratings as it is. Not to mention that their blowers aren't designed to spin at very high rpms. So while the compressor by itself may be able to flow high cfm, the rest of the rotating assembly simply can't handle the necessary rpms and would blow itself apart long before you reach the limits of what the compressor can do. It's a lot like some of the frankenstein turbos you see out there with huge compressors and small, restrictive, exhaust housings. Sure, the compressor may be able to flow 500hp worth of air, but the exhaust housing restricts things too much to ever achieve what the compressor could theoretically deliver.

In terms of needing a motor build, someone else here already mentioned the clinching factor, and that is torque. Given that horsepower is a function of torque and rpm and superchargers make their peak torque near redline, the overall torque they produce to achieve a given horsepower level is not necessarily high enough to require a built motor. Another thing to point out is the G37 TT we built making ~500whp daily with a stock motor and still running strong.

I grow more impatient by the day for F.I.

do it.. the $$$ only hurts for a little while. :stirthepot: