Just for fun ultimate forced induction convo (BS'ing encouraged)

Brazilbro · 12-15-2010, 10:14 PM

I think TQ will be the main gain from VVEL control. Better throttle response would be icing on the cake. Once we get control I'm sure my TT tq curve will look more like the GT-Rs where Peak tq and hp are much closer numbers

toner123 · 12-15-2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazilbro

I think TQ will be the main gain from VVEL control. Better throttle response would be icing on the cake. Once we get control I'm sure my TT tq curve will look more like the GT-Rs where Peak tq and hp are much closer numbers

Can you explain to me how the VVEL works. I have a very limited knowledge on this. Also how will this help are tq?
Frank

fstrnldr · 12-15-2010, 11:20 PM

Frank the best thing to read regarding the abilities of the VVEL is on that website with a very similar name to this one, but with more tech articles.

Regarding gains. Its hard to know gains with out know exactly what it is doing now. I will say my personal prediction is that the supercharger guys will probably be the ones that gain the most from the VVEL tuning. The VVEL is probably tuned very close to max power for the stock NA motor, which will be higher valve overlap. This will effect the supercharged cars more because the boost will blow right through the engine. The turbo cars will not be effected as much because the turbine side of the charger will create its own back pressure on the engine and limit the boost blowing through the motor. Not saying gains will not be possible on the turbo and na cars, but i'm guessing its the SC guys that will be loving that mod.

As far as the twin charging questions .... talk to GTM i know that there Supercharger kit will fit on the engine at the same time as the twin turbos. Obviously the piping and IC set up would have to be custom though. Just have to find someone to step up and have the first compound charged Z.

toner123 · 12-15-2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstrnldr

Frank the best thing to read regarding the abilities of the VVEL is on that website with a very similar name to this one, but with more tech articles.

Regarding gains. Its hard to know gains with out know exactly what it is doing now. I will say my personal prediction is that the supercharger guys will probably be the ones that gain the most from the VVEL tuning. The VVEL is probably tuned very close to max power for the stock NA motor, which will be higher valve overlap. This will effect the supercharged cars more because the boost will blow right through the engine. The turbo cars will not be effected as much because the turbine side of the charger will create its own back pressure on the engine and limit the boost blowing through the motor. Not saying gains will not be possible on the turbo and na cars, but i'm guessing its the SC guys that will be loving that mod.

As far as the twin charging questions .... talk to GTM i know that there Supercharger kit will fit on the engine at the same time as the twin turbos. Obviously the piping and IC set up would have to be custom though. Just have to find someone to step up and have the first compound charged Z.

thanks alot

Jordo! · 12-16-2010, 05:42 AM

I've thought of messing with peltier coolers before -- you can pick up the parts pretty cheap. Need a way to vent off the heat from the hot side though, wouldn't you?

What I'd really like to see is a roots blower kit, presumably with clutch-type engagement.

1slow370 · 12-16-2010, 06:29 AM

if someone did the peltier route i would think you would want to have a dual liquid cooling setup to use it best. take like a vortech water to air cooler core (or similar make) mount up a U shaped pipe to it with a small pump to induce circulation, and mount the peltier cold sides directly to the water jacket of the core, then have a second coolant system that would be pumped from a heat exchanger on the front of the car to water blocks on the peltier hotsides to cool them down. The advantage over a traditional setup would be sub ambient temps in the cooler core.

The VVEL controls performance is absolutely based on the deficiencies (or lack there of) of the stock settings per application. so yes FI applications would see a larger benefit by reducing overlap on the timing to keep the intake charge from blowing out the closing exhaust valve. At the same time since VVEL actually adjusts how far the valve opens as well, some fine tuning here would benefit response and torque across the board if the factory setup is off or would have fewer sites. Basically if you open the valve farther you make it easier for the air charge to enter the cylinder, but if you open it too far you screw up the harmonics of the engine. Assuming that nissan kept everything shortened up to make the engine run smoother(and possibly limit the power) there will be gains to be had here. The same could be said with the valve timing in the case of an N/A. Ever wonder where the egr's went nowadays? Manufactures use the variable valve timing to over lap the exhaust and actually suck some of the exhaust fumes back into the cylinder for emissions reasons. depending on when and how much, reducing this could provide a benefit as well.

Also for the roots or screw setups vvel, and throttle control will be necessary to keep the supercharger from seizing.

1slow370 · 12-16-2010, 08:28 AM

ok did some calculating and it would take one hell of a setup to cool that much air that fast. at full tilt on a 900hp engine to cool 1500 cfm 60 deg Celsius you need to dissipate roughly 53.62 Kw of heat so bullitt's intercooler will be throwing off over 80hp in heat energy to bring a 212 F charge temp down to 104 F so peltiers on bullett's car to get his charge temp down to 40 F would be about 126 hp or 93.38 Kw. the higest capacity peltiers i could find were 62mmx62mm and dissipated 550w so you would need 170 for a 1000 car or just enough to totally cover his intercooler. sounds great but at the chips optimum 12v you would need over 680amps (4 amp draw) to drive them and with his sound system that just wouldn't work. oh and at $30 a piece it would cost $5100 for the chips

JoeyD · 12-16-2010, 11:38 AM

I've done some work with Peltier modules. I think the best way to use them would be something akin to an "ice-box". You would replace the air-to-water heat exchanger element with a peltier module enhanced unit. You would use the peltier units to bring down the water temp and air cool the peltier units. If the peltier units were mounted in or on the upper water-to-air core the surface(heat sink) needed to properly remove the excess heat would be prohibitive. The advantage of this setup is it would only require the replacement of one element in an already existing system.

1slow370 · 12-18-2010, 07:35 PM

true i was thinking of doing the ice box route and feeding from the box, pump, cooler core, heat exchanger, return to the box, but i still say that the hotsides should be water cooled to get the best gains out of them because as i said the amount of heat needed to shed off that water box would be huge even with the heat exchanger dumping a lot of it before it returned to the system, it would let you reduce the power demand and chip count for sure. but for the true benefit of sub ambient cooling the peltier hot sides would need to be cooled down near ambient themselves to make the price of the system worth it.

also while on the subject of intercoolers what about a copper intercooler core for the stillen manifold? Typically aluminum is used due to it's better ratio of heat capacity for density, meaning a bigger aluminum intercooler can weigh less than a smaller copper one that is equally efficient. But with the locked in form factor of the stillen cooler the 60% higher ratio of heat transfer, and 30% greater heat capacity per unit volume would make copper a definite improvement in the limited space.

G37sHKS · 12-19-2010, 01:05 PM

I wanted to open a thread but found this thread so Ill ask my questions in here..

Is there any other company that are prototyping a TT kit for VHR that uses billet turbos or the new EFR BW turbos??

other cars like Mustang, corvettes, GT-R R35, etc etc are already started to develop TT kit uses EFR BW turbos and billet turbos.

2nd question is.. do anybody know if GTM's future kits are going to be using the new Garret GTX that was released in Sema?
because that a good jump from Garret, 10% more power without any additional boost.

1slow370 · 12-19-2010, 04:13 PM

well if they are the same mounting flange i'm sure a minute on the phone with Sam would make it happen for GTM, possibly they same with the efr's if the mounting flange is the same or a quick adapter could be made.

G37sHKS · 12-19-2010, 04:25 PM

The new GTX Garret are same mounting flange as Old model GT Garret.
But GTM never mentioned something about the GTX update

The EFR is completely different.

1slow370 · 12-19-2010, 10:27 PM

you know i like the efr series but i don't know about some of the integrated features. the built in bypass to most would be a waste of money because they would want different blow off valves, the shaft speed sensor may not be compatible with various gauge makes and designs people may want, you get my drift. Now if borg warner opts to allow you to order a base version, or sells a full sensor kit that would change things.

12-15-2010, 10:14 PM	#16 (permalink)
Brazilbro A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,131 Drives: Juke/240Z Rep Power: 848	I think TQ will be the main gain from VVEL control. Better throttle response would be icing on the cake. Once we get control I'm sure my TT tq curve will look more like the GT-Rs where Peak tq and hp are much closer numbers __________________ Juke AWD/240Z SR20 08 Evo 10(Stage 2) SOLD Fastest Sport 6spd 370Z 11.8 @126.5SOLD

12-16-2010, 05:42 AM	#20 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 418	I've thought of messing with peltier coolers before -- you can pick up the parts pretty cheap. Need a way to vent off the heat from the hot side though, wouldn't you? What I'd really like to see is a roots blower kit, presumably with clutch-type engagement. __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it.

12-16-2010, 06:29 AM	#21 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	if someone did the peltier route i would think you would want to have a dual liquid cooling setup to use it best. take like a vortech water to air cooler core (or similar make) mount up a U shaped pipe to it with a small pump to induce circulation, and mount the peltier cold sides directly to the water jacket of the core, then have a second coolant system that would be pumped from a heat exchanger on the front of the car to water blocks on the peltier hotsides to cool them down. The advantage over a traditional setup would be sub ambient temps in the cooler core. The VVEL controls performance is absolutely based on the deficiencies (or lack there of) of the stock settings per application. so yes FI applications would see a larger benefit by reducing overlap on the timing to keep the intake charge from blowing out the closing exhaust valve. At the same time since VVEL actually adjusts how far the valve opens as well, some fine tuning here would benefit response and torque across the board if the factory setup is off or would have fewer sites. Basically if you open the valve farther you make it easier for the air charge to enter the cylinder, but if you open it too far you screw up the harmonics of the engine. Assuming that nissan kept everything shortened up to make the engine run smoother(and possibly limit the power) there will be gains to be had here. The same could be said with the valve timing in the case of an N/A. Ever wonder where the egr's went nowadays? Manufactures use the variable valve timing to over lap the exhaust and actually suck some of the exhaust fumes back into the cylinder for emissions reasons. depending on when and how much, reducing this could provide a benefit as well. Also for the roots or screw setups vvel, and throttle control will be necessary to keep the supercharger from seizing. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

12-16-2010, 08:28 AM	#22 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	ok did some calculating and it would take one hell of a setup to cool that much air that fast. at full tilt on a 900hp engine to cool 1500 cfm 60 deg Celsius you need to dissipate roughly 53.62 Kw of heat so bullitt's intercooler will be throwing off over 80hp in heat energy to bring a 212 F charge temp down to 104 F so peltiers on bullett's car to get his charge temp down to 40 F would be about 126 hp or 93.38 Kw. the higest capacity peltiers i could find were 62mmx62mm and dissipated 550w so you would need 170 for a 1000 car or just enough to totally cover his intercooler. sounds great but at the chips optimum 12v you would need over 680amps (4 amp draw) to drive them and with his sound system that just wouldn't work. oh and at $30 a piece it would cost $5100 for the chips __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

12-16-2010, 11:38 AM	#23 (permalink)
JoeyD Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raeford, NC Posts: 305 Drives: 09 NISMO 370Z Rep Power: 186	I've done some work with Peltier modules. I think the best way to use them would be something akin to an "ice-box". You would replace the air-to-water heat exchanger element with a peltier module enhanced unit. You would use the peltier units to bring down the water temp and air cool the peltier units. If the peltier units were mounted in or on the upper water-to-air core the surface(heat sink) needed to properly remove the excess heat would be prohibitive. The advantage of this setup is it would only require the replacement of one element in an already existing system. __________________ When was the last time you did 230MPH in something with 4 seats?

12-15-2010, 11:20 PM	#18 (permalink)
fstrnldr Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 170 Drives: Canyonero Rep Power: 16	Frank the best thing to read regarding the abilities of the VVEL is on that website with a very similar name to this one, but with more tech articles. Regarding gains. Its hard to know gains with out know exactly what it is doing now. I will say my personal prediction is that the supercharger guys will probably be the ones that gain the most from the VVEL tuning. The VVEL is probably tuned very close to max power for the stock NA motor, which will be higher valve overlap. This will effect the supercharged cars more because the boost will blow right through the engine. The turbo cars will not be effected as much because the turbine side of the charger will create its own back pressure on the engine and limit the boost blowing through the motor. Not saying gains will not be possible on the turbo and na cars, but i'm guessing its the SC guys that will be loving that mod. As far as the twin charging questions .... talk to GTM i know that there Supercharger kit will fit on the engine at the same time as the twin turbos. Obviously the piping and IC set up would have to be custom though. Just have to find someone to step up and have the first compound charged Z.

12-18-2010, 07:35 PM	#24 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	true i was thinking of doing the ice box route and feeding from the box, pump, cooler core, heat exchanger, return to the box, but i still say that the hotsides should be water cooled to get the best gains out of them because as i said the amount of heat needed to shed off that water box would be huge even with the heat exchanger dumping a lot of it before it returned to the system, it would let you reduce the power demand and chip count for sure. but for the true benefit of sub ambient cooling the peltier hot sides would need to be cooled down near ambient themselves to make the price of the system worth it. also while on the subject of intercoolers what about a copper intercooler core for the stillen manifold? Typically aluminum is used due to it's better ratio of heat capacity for density, meaning a bigger aluminum intercooler can weigh less than a smaller copper one that is equally efficient. But with the locked in form factor of the stillen cooler the 60% higher ratio of heat transfer, and 30% greater heat capacity per unit volume would make copper a definite improvement in the limited space. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

12-19-2010, 01:05 PM	#25 (permalink)
G37sHKS A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Dubai Posts: 1,183 Drives: 09 G37S Coupe 7AT Rep Power: 20	I wanted to open a thread but found this thread so Ill ask my questions in here.. Is there any other company that are prototyping a TT kit for VHR that uses billet turbos or the new EFR BW turbos?? other cars like Mustang, corvettes, GT-R R35, etc etc are already started to develop TT kit uses EFR BW turbos and billet turbos. 2nd question is.. do anybody know if GTM's future kits are going to be using the new Garret GTX that was released in Sema? because that a good jump from Garret, 10% more power without any additional boost. Last edited by G37sHKS; 12-19-2010 at 01:09 PM.

12-19-2010, 04:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	well if they are the same mounting flange i'm sure a minute on the phone with Sam would make it happen for GTM, possibly they same with the efr's if the mounting flange is the same or a quick adapter could be made. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

12-19-2010, 04:25 PM	#27 (permalink)
G37sHKS A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Dubai Posts: 1,183 Drives: 09 G37S Coupe 7AT Rep Power: 20	The new GTX Garret are same mounting flange as Old model GT Garret. But GTM never mentioned something about the GTX update The EFR is completely different.

12-19-2010, 10:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	you know i like the efr series but i don't know about some of the integrated features. the built in bypass to most would be a waste of money because they would want different blow off valves, the shaft speed sensor may not be compatible with various gauge makes and designs people may want, you get my drift. Now if borg warner opts to allow you to order a base version, or sells a full sensor kit that would change things. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

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