Some "Noobie" Questions.

Nanometer · 11-07-2010, 02:37 AM

I have some outstanding questions and concerns regarding the 37VHR tune ability. And I would greatly appreciate any input.

Is the stock O2 sensor adequate to get accurate A/F reading or is wideband needed?
-
What ratio of A/F to shoot for throughout the rev range?
-
Is there a need to remap ignition timing? Or should I use a pre-configured map and do a whole ecu flash? (and where could I get my hands on a preconfigured map)
-
Is an EGT sensor needed?
-
Are there any crucial tuning points there are to worry about that are not already listed?

I apologize if these are dumb questions, I am new around here <-- clearly.. and I have never built my own boosted car, so this will be my first(worked on others however... used to spend time in a tuner shop in California).

fstrnldr · 11-07-2010, 11:27 AM

I was going to attempt to answer all of your questions, but honestly this is probably one of the worst cars you could choose as a first attempt at boost. If we were on Honda tech or DSM talk, i would offer some advice and say go for it. The tight engine bay can make the mechanical design side a pain in the ***, and the VVEL and just the fact that the whole engine design and tune is optimized for NA can make tuning far more challenging than your basic turbo cars. I hate to crush your dreams but i would say buy a kit. You can still do your own install to save money or have more control over the install, but it will give you a good base to your build.

Nanometer · 11-07-2010, 01:25 PM

I actually did plan to buy a basic kit, I guess I should have specified that. The only things I'd buy out of kit would be the electronics, and then an upgraded fuel system.

Xan · 11-07-2010, 01:34 PM

I'm sorry , but if you have to ask these question, you should not be tuning the car yourself... Built it, take it to a pro to get it tuned.... He will have both the right equipment and knowledge. Learn from that first...

Nanometer · 11-07-2010, 01:46 PM

Fair enough, but what about a lot of the questions regarding sufficient sensors? EGT? Wideband? are they needed?

fstrnldr · 11-07-2010, 07:40 PM

EGT is always a good idea. 6 is even a better idea (on a 6 cylinder of course) As far as the air fuel monitoring i honestly have never compared the two side by side. A lot would depend on how you are logging them as the sample rate could be vastly different in different methods. I'm very curious now as to what the full plans are.

1slow370 · 11-08-2010, 12:43 AM

the factory sensors are wideband, get an uprev tuner license (google uprev, or you could buy it through gtm, they aslo have all the parts from their turbo kit for sale individually on their site go to the main forum page and scroll down to the vendors) I would say get the tuning sofware you need figured out, find a shop that can tune it and make sure they are familiar with it, I believe greddy has an emanage ultimate for the car as well, then once you have that sorted out and the car still runs fine add your turbos and get it tuned. there is always a need to remap the ignition timing on a high compression n/a car when adding boost, you will also probably need bigger injectors.

JB-370z · 11-08-2010, 10:32 AM

No gauges are needed to get you up and running. But would it be nice to have these gauges??? Of course man!!! The ability to monitor the engine in real time is always a very good idea. Your tuner might not like the idea of running the car without specific components though and I would not blame him.

Note: This is a great car to throw a kit on. Doing the work your-self is another question.

Nanometer · 11-08-2010, 07:14 PM

The mechanics of this project is nothing to me, I've worked on cars before and it is part of my major in college. The only part I'm iffy at is tuning the car. And if the only thing I have to tune is A/F then I'd really rather not take it to a pro for 500 an hour when I can have some of my supra vr4 or silvia friends help me tune it. But it does sound like it's more involved than that, so I may be so unfortunate as to be forced to bring it to someone.

Live monitoring will be a must for me, and I have no decided if I want to use the GPS screen or another screen where I can monitor several indicators(mounting it somewhere in the car like a 3rd party GPS).

I'm also planning on using a laptop for live engine feedback until the engine is finally tuned. Though there are few software options, uprev was one of the ones I'm aware of. Is there a standard what most Z guys do so uprev is standard? I'm more familiar with the cobb products which is why I ask.

1slow370 · 11-09-2010, 05:20 AM

well there is an accessport for the early cars but since then cobb has discontinued development for all N/a cars. Uprev is the only non-piggy back available. a good tuner shouldn't cost you 500 an hour if that is what they charge out by you i feel for you.

Sharif@Forged · 11-14-2010, 02:24 PM

Factory widebands are not sufficient for tuning rich forced induction engines. For starters, the actual number displayed is not accurate, and much less so on the richer end of the scale. It's fairly close around 12.7 to 14.7. The richest value displayed is in the 11's.

AEM widebands are cheap....$270 through us. I strongly suggestion a wideband if you stand a good chance of success. EGT is a nice to have, but not required.

iPhone..excuse typos.

SAM@GTM · 11-14-2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanometer

I have some outstanding questions and concerns regarding the 37VHR tune ability. And I would greatly appreciate any input.

Is the stock O2 sensor adequate to get accurate A/F reading or is wideband needed?
-
What ratio of A/F to shoot for throughout the rev range?
-
Is there a need to remap ignition timing? Or should I use a pre-configured map and do a whole ecu flash? (and where could I get my hands on a preconfigured map)
-
Is an EGT sensor needed?
-
Are there any crucial tuning points there are to worry about that are not already listed?

I apologize if these are dumb questions, I am new around here <-- clearly.. and I have never built my own boosted car, so this will be my first(worked on others however... used to spend time in a tuner shop in California).

Tuning

Factory widebands are sufficient for tuning in this platform if you know what your are doing and know how to translate the data into usable info that you can rely on in making changes to the tune. it is really no rocket science but experience does come in handy.

Here is the manual for our turn key tuning solution http://www.gtmotorsports.com/Manuals...rn_Key_EMS.pdf .This should help you to get an idea of what you are up against . Keep in mind that this is what we use In all of our force induction solution world wide with an outstanding results.

Monitoring

The more the better, overdoing this will not hurt you, But would i put an EGT on 500HP setup ...probably not .

Good luck

Sam

Sharif@Forged · 11-14-2010, 04:23 PM

Tuning with a wideband that someone guesses is 1 point richer across the board than listed is not a reliable way to tune. The interesting thing, is it's not uniformly 1 point richer across the sensors operating range. At 14.7:1 it's actually very accurate. I don't like to guess when tuning....the more accurate data you have the better, IMHO, especially when the OP is tuning a car for the first time.

11-07-2010, 02:37 AM	#1 (permalink)
Nanometer Base Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: West Hills Posts: 11 Drives: G37s 6spd Rep Power: 15	Some "Noobie" Questions. I have some outstanding questions and concerns regarding the 37VHR tune ability. And I would greatly appreciate any input. Is the stock O2 sensor adequate to get accurate A/F reading or is wideband needed? - What ratio of A/F to shoot for throughout the rev range? - Is there a need to remap ignition timing? Or should I use a pre-configured map and do a whole ecu flash? (and where could I get my hands on a preconfigured map) - Is an EGT sensor needed? - Are there any crucial tuning points there are to worry about that are not already listed? I apologize if these are dumb questions, I am new around here <-- clearly.. and I have never built my own boosted car, so this will be my first(worked on others however... used to spend time in a tuner shop in California). Last edited by Nanometer; 11-07-2010 at 01:25 PM.

11-07-2010, 01:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
Xan A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: MA Posts:99999999999999 Posts: 3,301 Drives: 370Z 40th Aniversary Rep Power: 24	I'm sorry , but if you have to ask these question, you should not be tuning the car yourself... Built it, take it to a pro to get it tuned.... He will have both the right equipment and knowledge. Learn from that first... __________________

11-08-2010, 12:43 AM	#7 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	the factory sensors are wideband, get an uprev tuner license (google uprev, or you could buy it through gtm, they aslo have all the parts from their turbo kit for sale individually on their site go to the main forum page and scroll down to the vendors) I would say get the tuning sofware you need figured out, find a shop that can tune it and make sure they are familiar with it, I believe greddy has an emanage ultimate for the car as well, then once you have that sorted out and the car still runs fine add your turbos and get it tuned. there is always a need to remap the ignition timing on a high compression n/a car when adding boost, you will also probably need bigger injectors. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

11-08-2010, 10:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
JB-370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 1,859 Drives: Stage 2 Twin Turbos Rep Power: 19	No gauges are needed to get you up and running. But would it be nice to have these gauges??? Of course man!!! The ability to monitor the engine in real time is always a very good idea. Your tuner might not like the idea of running the car without specific components though and I would not blame him. Note: This is a great car to throw a kit on. Doing the work your-self is another question. __________________ ll Baker Tuning ll GTM ll Powerhouse Amuse ll HKS ll Up-Rev ll iForged ll AP Racing ll Pioneer ll SPL ll Bride ll Top Secret ll OS Giken ll GTM Stage 2 Twin Turboed 370z (First in Texas, Thanks To Baker Tuning)

11-09-2010, 05:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7251	well there is an accessport for the early cars but since then cobb has discontinued development for all N/a cars. Uprev is the only non-piggy back available. a good tuner shouldn't cost you 500 an hour if that is what they charge out by you i feel for you. __________________ ANSWER PRICE LIST Answers - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - $0.75 Answers (requiring thought) - - - - $1.25 Answers (correct) - - - - - - - - - - $12.50

11-07-2010, 11:27 AM	#2 (permalink)
fstrnldr Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 170 Drives: Canyonero Rep Power: 16	I was going to attempt to answer all of your questions, but honestly this is probably one of the worst cars you could choose as a first attempt at boost. If we were on Honda tech or DSM talk, i would offer some advice and say go for it. The tight engine bay can make the mechanical design side a pain in the ***, and the VVEL and just the fact that the whole engine design and tune is optimized for NA can make tuning far more challenging than your basic turbo cars. I hate to crush your dreams but i would say buy a kit. You can still do your own install to save money or have more control over the install, but it will give you a good base to your build.

11-07-2010, 01:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
Nanometer Base Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: West Hills Posts: 11 Drives: G37s 6spd Rep Power: 15	I actually did plan to buy a basic kit, I guess I should have specified that. The only things I'd buy out of kit would be the electronics, and then an upgraded fuel system.

11-07-2010, 01:46 PM	#5 (permalink)
Nanometer Base Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: West Hills Posts: 11 Drives: G37s 6spd Rep Power: 15	Fair enough, but what about a lot of the questions regarding sufficient sensors? EGT? Wideband? are they needed?

11-07-2010, 07:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
fstrnldr Base Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: CA Posts: 170 Drives: Canyonero Rep Power: 16	EGT is always a good idea. 6 is even a better idea (on a 6 cylinder of course) As far as the air fuel monitoring i honestly have never compared the two side by side. A lot would depend on how you are logging them as the sample rate could be vastly different in different methods. I'm very curious now as to what the full plans are.

11-08-2010, 07:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
Nanometer Base Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: West Hills Posts: 11 Drives: G37s 6spd Rep Power: 15	The mechanics of this project is nothing to me, I've worked on cars before and it is part of my major in college. The only part I'm iffy at is tuning the car. And if the only thing I have to tune is A/F then I'd really rather not take it to a pro for 500 an hour when I can have some of my supra vr4 or silvia friends help me tune it. But it does sound like it's more involved than that, so I may be so unfortunate as to be forced to bring it to someone. Live monitoring will be a must for me, and I have no decided if I want to use the GPS screen or another screen where I can monitor several indicators(mounting it somewhere in the car like a 3rd party GPS). I'm also planning on using a laptop for live engine feedback until the engine is finally tuned. Though there are few software options, uprev was one of the ones I'm aware of. Is there a standard what most Z guys do so uprev is standard? I'm more familiar with the cobb products which is why I ask.

11-14-2010, 02:24 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sharif@Forged The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 840 Drives: 2009 GT-R, 2010 370Z Rep Power: 17	Factory widebands are not sufficient for tuning rich forced induction engines. For starters, the actual number displayed is not accurate, and much less so on the richer end of the scale. It's fairly close around 12.7 to 14.7. The richest value displayed is in the 11's. AEM widebands are cheap....$270 through us. I strongly suggestion a wideband if you stand a good chance of success. EGT is a nice to have, but not required. iPhone..excuse typos. __________________ Sharif@Forgedperformance.com General Manager/Certified Tuner/NASA-PCA-BMWCAA Instructor JRZ RS1's Available NOW...PM me Cobb ProTuner, Uprev ECU Flash, FCON Vpro, Haltech, Motec Certified

11-14-2010, 04:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sharif@Forged The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 840 Drives: 2009 GT-R, 2010 370Z Rep Power: 17	Tuning with a wideband that someone guesses is 1 point richer across the board than listed is not a reliable way to tune. The interesting thing, is it's not uniformly 1 point richer across the sensors operating range. At 14.7:1 it's actually very accurate. I don't like to guess when tuning....the more accurate data you have the better, IMHO, especially when the OP is tuning a car for the first time. __________________ Sharif@Forgedperformance.com General Manager/Certified Tuner/NASA-PCA-BMWCAA Instructor JRZ RS1's Available NOW...PM me Cobb ProTuner, Uprev ECU Flash, FCON Vpro, Haltech, Motec Certified

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