Successfull Tracking with Forced Induction??
 

There are a few threads on different forced induction kits. I am interested but... In my opinion, its not worth it unless you are able to track your car with it. Any input from anybody who successfully tracks with any type of forced induction?? In Importuner or Modified they tracked a twin turbo 370 and had to add some crazy fabricated cooling system. In another article I read, they had to fill the window wash fluid with ice water and aim it at the oil cooler....wtf

Forced inductoin on the 350Z/370Z for track use is extremely challenging and expensive to pull off. The cooling capacity of the oil and coolant heat exchangers needs to increase by 4-5 times over factor levels in order to reach a steady state temp equilibrium at a safe level. It's a simple heat in/heat out equation, but adding that level of cooling capacity would be challenging on a street car. This isn't something that would fit neatly into a street car without significant fabrication, and removal of many front end components such as your AC.

On my 370Z Nismo which is still NA, I hit 270F oil temps even with an oil cooler, in just 5-6 laps at Road Atlanta on a hot day. With FI I wouldn't make it around 1 lap. The rate and level at which you overheat is directly related to lap times and how aggressive you are behind the wheel, YMMV.

Are these heat issues only occurring in FI'ed VHR engines? Does the HR also exhibit the same issues when proper cooling (oil coolers, radiator, etc.) is used?

I know it's the oil temps that are causing the problems. However, could a larger capacity radiator make any difference?

There are no issues with water/coolant temperature even while tracking the 370z. The oil is the only real core issue regarding fluid temperatures and a larger radiator won't make an appreciable difference to the oil temps.

The article is in October Modified called "Chasing Godzilla". It explains what was needed to track the twin turbo Z. They had to build a "Nascar style" cooling sytem. Seems if you want to track with the VQ engine, stick to bolt ons and weight reduction. Damn

^^ Isn't that the 370Z that Forged Performance built?

I bet you most of the people who own Zs and want to TT or SC them have never ever reached the limits of their cars on a track. Its like some stupid wet dream you have... oohhh I wanna TT it so i can go FAST! Let me tell you this -driving on a track is wayy more fun when you and the car and communicating. What I have found is normally - FI'd cars tend to have a non linear TQ delivery causing some very funny moments mid corner. It will take you 10 times more seat time to get warm and comfy with a TT'd 370 on a track as compared to an NA one. When I was at infineon, the Z could not have been more predictable through the corners - something I am not willing to compromise for a second in the quarter and more passing power on the freeway. My 2c tho :)

TT are definitely heaters but what about SC? I'm assuming the heat generation issue would be a little less and perhaps a bit more manageable. The low end torque would take some getting used to but exits to the track out would be kind of fun.

I find myself standing on the gas going into the "short" straight at Pacific Raceways and would love to bump the speed up sooner rather than wait some distance for it. Of course how I set up on the corner (prior to) has a lot to do with how long it takes to wind things up.

This discussion is also relative to where one tracks their car. Some courses are better suited for big power, whereas others are pure and simple corner management. My 2 cents :tup:

That depends on the setup though. I'd take a centrifugal SC over TT any day for circuit type racing.

I agree with the exception of SC applications. Look at the TQ curve of every supercharged z34 thus far. It essentially looks like a stock curve only higher on the graph. FI isn't the problem TT is. That being said HP=Heat. The only way to sustain the kinds of power we are talking is with massive oil cooler(s) and a larger oil reservoir. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but you're probably looking at something like an 8-10 qt oil change.

I understand how a TT or SC is going to cause a ton more heat, but how does the GT-R, for example, pull it off?

Well there you are talking about a car that was designed by nissan to be driven at those speeds - I am sure the forged GTR is quite modified in the cooling areas :)

A stock turbo is going to be easier to upgrade and manage for heat etc

Okay but the factory doesn't have magic powers to cool an engine, so if a stock vehicle has turbos it has those same issues as ours when you add FI to it. So either our cooling options are relatively poor or it's overkill...and I don't remember the GT-R having a "nascar sized oil cooler"...

...that's what I'm not understanding. If I go FI it's going to be for the track, and if I have to mod the pants off of my car to do it I'm getting rid of it and getting a used GT3 or GT-R....

The GTR was designed from the beginning for FI. Compression ratios, internal parts, cooling system, everything is designed from the get go to work together. Its definitely not the same as adding it to a non FI car.

I had to de-supercharge my C6 for the exact same reasons once I tried tracking it, it just couldn't keep the oil cool enough.

If you really want FI for the track and are going to get another car, that white one in modified magazine is for sale, and for a lot less than a used GT3 or GTR, and its a fully sorted track car.

Well wow then, I guess I don't understand why so many people boost their cars if they aren't tracking them...haha. Had no idea that you guys were all just doing this for street fun.

I boosted my 350z and my corvette. The 350 had the stillen eaton supercharger, and it behaved perfectly on the track, and was a very worthwhile upgrade, even if it didn't have the power of the vortech or procharger. The corvette however, just couldn't deal with the track and truthfully, at 550 rwhp, it wasn't that fun on the street either, as I could never really use the power.

Lack of VVEL for starters.

The VHR has high oil temp issues and the HR doesn't. That alone just shows how much VVEL has an effect on oil temps.

Anybody with FI chime in....have you done any track days.....whats up FI peepz...Sounds like if you want to track...Do Not go FI !!

Mike, you hit it on the head. And even with the GT-R we still have to make upgrades the cooling system due to the tremendous heat generated during extended lapping sessions.

And great reminder...its' for sale, and a total bargain!

Anybody having good experiences tracking with FI yet?

I'll let you know next week... Going to hit Laguna Seca on the 17th. I'm not sure it's a fair comparison for the rest of the country though but I don't expect the weather to be hot at all. I'll be running at GTM Stage II S/C with their oil cooler, no other cooling mods otherwise.

Obviously you have not experienced shifting through the gears on a freeway on ramp with 450whp. Makes you giggly inside every time. Besides, I think its more useful to FI on a daily car than a track car. How often can you track? Once a month? Once every 2 months? I enjoy my TT everyday. :tup:

Now you see why I sold my TT Z

Just wanted to chime in with our experience in building the only aftermarket cooling system module for the 370Z/G37.. Also some of the feedback of our customers who have installed the unit.

Our goal when developing our upgraded cooling system module (radiator + condenser) were the following:
- Drop-in fit, requiring no modifications to install.
- Increase the cooling system capacity by at least 100%
- Able to remove the condenser for race application.

Performance Motorsport (NY) tracked their 370Z Nismo (NA) at a time attack event in New Jersey in August (humid/hot ~90 ambient temp) with our radiator installed, and went over 12 laps without the water temp getting over 228 degrees and the oil around 250.
Performance Race Solutions (FL) had very similar results when tracking their car during the summer in Florida.

The biggest issue we see with this vehicle set-up is the lack of direct and cold airflow that the cooling system receives, especially in FI set-ups. The front grill is not very large and airflow is poor, combined with the lack of space/venting for the air to escape once it's passed through the radiator.
- FOR NA builds the airflow is more direct, but intake systems that sit in front of the radiator compete for cold air with some of them blocking the radiator and sucking in cold air before it can travel through the cooling system.
- For FI builds, the air has to go through a massive intercooler first. Also, sometimes additional coolers are placed before the cooling system as well.
- Even worse, when tracking/racing, if you are drafting behind someone, you will be getting very little airflow.


Our unit has about 130% more cooling capacity/efficiency than the stock unit when accounting for our thicker core and B-tube technology that is about 15% more efficient than the tubes Nissan uses for this vehicle.

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. I've heard many 370Z owners say this, and I don't know why.
If the radiator is cooling the water that is circulating around the engine block, and the oil is circulating within the engine, then bringing down the water temps will also directly bring down the oil temps. Because no person (that we know of) has installed our unit without any additional oil coolers, we don't know what the significance of our unit solely on the oil temps are. However, for the guys who have seriously tracked their cars, it has made a huge difference in bringing down their oil temps, but more importantly stabilizing them.

A "Nascar style" cooling system is typically 3-4 inches thicks and at least 3 rows of tubing. Making a unit this size was not possible because of the condenser portion that needed to be included and the support beam that runs vertically in front of the condenser. For guys who want to track their car, the ability to remove the condenser will increase the cooling efficiency of their vehicle, something we took into account when developing out unit.

If there is sufficient demand from the 370Z/G37 community, we could build a unit without a condenser that would be ~3-3.5 times more cooling capacity compared to the original while still installing without any modifications. If we could get at least 5 units pre-ordered, I could discuss a group-buy with one of the supporting vendors who distribute our product. Any interest?
- We also had the idea of putting additional plate-type oil coolers in both end tanks, but the market for this was undetermined.

Our advice, is that if you are planning on tracking your car or stepping up to an FI build, you definitely need some type of extra cooling capacity. Nissan really botched this design up with their single unit radiator/condenser. The thickness of the radiator core is a mere 15mm and it has no front surface area. For a high performance sports car, i wonder what they were thinking:shakes head:

They were thinking 98% of the purchasers wouldn't ever push the car that hard, and cars are a small margin business. The good news is that manufacturers' shortcuts make for a booming aftermarket!

BTW, it's a shame that if you are making such an awesome product for our cars that it is so hard to find info about on your website. I believe I found it, but there are no pictures, no cost, no ordering info, etc.

CSF does not sell to the end user... I run their products and they are GREAT! we even put them in customer cars. If you want pics many of the vendors including UAM have pictures and pricing of the product.

Mike :tup:

What does a guy have to do around here to get a frack'n link? :tup:

How about running inline oil coolers? 2x25R or 34Rs plus a better radiator (CSF or GTM) and low boost? Would the extra amount of oil require a better pump?

FI on track is defiantly doable, the only thing is what type of tracking you are going for, personally i can't just go out for hours on, most of the time i just go out and do around 10 laps and go back to the pits to let the car cool down. Plus most of the time, brake fade is the main reason for going back to the pits for cool down. However, if you guys are the type that go out and keep on driving hard for more then an hour, then i say more cooling is defiantly needed. So far on my HR, with outside temp at around 77F, i have seen my oil temp go as high as 279F, that's the highest record on my blitz. This is with the 19 row oil cooler from GTM. I do live in a cold place tho, so for those of you in the south, this might not apply.

Thanks. Still no info on cost. I wonder how this stacks up with GTM's own offering.

The following supporting forum vendors have access to our product:

Vivid Racing
Stillen
UAM
GTM
Z1 - 370Z Upgraded Radiator with Condenser

We are the only manufacture that has a drop-in fit radiator with the condenser to keep your ac functional. Our detachable 2 piece design is patent pending. There is nothing comparable to our product on the market.

Also, you can check out our racing and high performance website for more info. CSF Radiators
and our facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/CSFradiators

We carry CSF radiators, and actually have them listed on our website.

Manual models (MSRP $849):
CSF High Performance Radiator Nissan 370Z 08-11

Automatic models (MSRP $899):
CSF High Performance Radiator Nissan 370Z 08-11


Please PM me for pricing if you want to take advantage of our the370Z.com discount!!

CSF Inc posted the vendors who have it, I got mine from Z1 and got it in 2 days.
From what I have been told by Sam, he will probably have 2 version. Still waiting on official sizes, pricing and results.

They forgot someone :koolaidwall:

Sorry Scott - Slipped my mind.. We appreciate all the business. post edited.

CSF, for the Radiator for 7 speed Trans, is there any way we can get something bigger than a 7 row cooler that comes with the Radiator? Can it be upgraded. I am a GTM SC stage 2 on a 7AT platform and would like additional cooling on top of my 19 row trans cooler.

The original Nissan unit has a 7 "plate" type oil cooler. We initially wanted to put a larger cooler in there, but it was the largest we could fit in the end tank. This is when we thought about the idea of putting a cooler in each tank for double the oil cooling capacity, but we didn't know if there was a market demand considering that everyone was already buying an external oil cooler.

how much would the price jump if that were to be tabbed up.