Water/Meth injection

LateralG'z

I am planning on going forced induction and plan to really look at all forms to help maintain the correct engine temps. I seen a few of these water/meth injection systems. Can people tell me there experienced with these system? Is there one that is far superior than another? Does anyone have a lot experiences with these systems? Thanks

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2010 Mag Black, 6MT,

WarmAndSCSI

I really would not rely on a meth injection system to net you any power on the stock block, failsafe or not. The real gains from water/methanol injection come when you lean out the mixture and add back timing. Doing so on the stock block is only pushing it further to its ultimate failure point, past it if the methanol system has a fault.

If you're going to use it just to cool the intake charge and make a couple of hp, then it would be fine to use - no danger in doing that. But you really won't see much gain at all slapping it on. In fact, you may lose hp if it causes the mixture to become too rich.

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LateralG'z

It is to help with heat, not planning on using to find more power like most. I seen it used like racing fuel to help with heat and knock in hot conditions. Thanks for ur opinion.

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2010 Mag Black, 6MT,

Jordo!

I have a lot of experience with W/M inejction...

WarmandSci is correct, unless you are adding boost or timing, you will most likely lose rather than gain power, or at best break even. Although it will cool the charge, the water volume displaces both air and fuel (somewhat compensated by the concentration of methanol).

The major advantage of W/M is to quench detonation -- if you aren't detonating, you are unlikely to make any gains.

Or... if you wanted to run straight methanol, given the amount of extra fuel you burn for each lb of air, you'd make some extra power, but this would require completely revamping the fuel system and a major retune as well... stoich is 6.5:1 with meth. Also, really corrosive and toxic. And expensive.

Not worth it N/A... not always worth it even when boosted. And if you were to go that route, I'd recommend a direct port system anyway...

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Enjoy it. Destroy it.

WarmAndSCSI

^^ Agreed.

In the Evo world, we usually run methanol to allow us to push 30+ psi on pump gas, and still be able to make power. I starting running methanol on my V6 turbo so I could push almost 25 psi on a GT35R. Unless you think you're going to be pushing that kind of specific output and/or boost, then it's probably not worth it. The 370Z really doesn't need a lot of boost (and in turn extra heat) to reach insane power levels.

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LateralG'z

Thanks

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2010 Mag Black, 6MT,

Zsteve

Used in this scenerio is a pretty good and safe way to use it. Your ECU will notice the cooler intake and adjust timing itself to a degree netting you some HP and if you run out of the mixture you dont have to worry about knocking as you didnt adjust the timing and the ECU will just re adjust itself again. This would probaly help give you back alot of lost power in the summer time due to heat soak.

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2010 LS3 C6 Silver coupe corvette

RCZ

Hehe, I ran 25psi on my 35R on my STI...not really surprised when it blew up

I've thought about meth injection to keep myself a little bit more on the safe side in florida heat. I think though that for normal everyday driving its fine without meth, then if you take it to the track, run the highest possible octane you can find.

LaterlaG's: check out my journal sometime, I'm doing what you're asking about. I'm trying to lower my engine bay / engine temps across the board too. I'm going to start working on my cooling after this week...

FYI, I did some on-dyno testing. A cooler intercooler on the Stillen kit yielded 12whp. Check out the cryO2 system from DEI. Its definitely making its way to my car in a few months...

Zsteve

I am in TX and my oil temps are at 220 all the time so I know my engine is way hot too. I wonder how much hp Im losing due to the engine being heat soaked? And if I ran the water/meth without adjusting timing, how much I would get back? Any ideas on this?

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2010 LS3 C6 Silver coupe corvette

RCZ

engine will run a little cooler because of the cooler mix. The HP you lose is because the ECU pulls timing as it detects hotter engine temps. So maybe it will help a little...but not really a noticeable difference. You still will lose HP because of the rising oil temps.

Jordo!

Well -- few things to keep in mind...

(1) The ECU will have no idea the intake temps are cooler unless it measures air temps post W/M jet. You'd be better off spraying post compressor (without getting into a whole other topic -- the W/M spray can damage and pit the compressor wheel if sprayed pre-) to cool the charge temps, but I'm pretty sure the ECU will have no way of knowing post-compressor temps without some sort of custom set-up...

(2) The actual degree of cooling afforded is debateable, and certainly less effective than a good intercooler. The major advantage is that a W/M mixture (even just plain water) is an excellent anti-detonant -- but again, if you aren't getting knock, you won't really see any benefits.

Much of the gains come from running more ignition advance (the idea being that previously running that much advance resulted in pinging), but you don't really have any reason to assume that you will see gains from running more timing anyway until the whole turbo system is installed and tuned. There are limits to how much advance you can run before you just aren't going to make any more torque...

Now, if you found that the compression ratio of the pistons was holding you back from running more boost or more timing, then maybe it would be worth experimenting with W/M -- I don't know that you want to start out assuming you'll need it, because you probably won't.

Also, if you add it in, now you have another system that can fail and will need monitoring...

I suspect that the limiting factor on this motor will be how much power the motor can make before busting a ringland just from cyllinder pressure, and W/M won't prevent breaking from overpower.

(3) W/M kits are nice if you have cramped space and no intercooler -- a bit overkill if you do have one. I ran one for some time on my old car (before I had an intercooler), and I did pick up some power, but this is because the ECU was definitely pulling timing. But... I probably shouldn't have pushed it so far, because eventually I broke a piston and had to do a rebuild

Live and learn.

I say, get the turbo on there, tune it, and then decide. If this is your DD, you may not want to push it to the ragged edge anyway, which is the other nice thing about W/M -- if you do push it close to the limit, it acts as a good failsafe for a sketchy tune (unless of course a water jet clogs or you run out of mixture...)

If you want to read more about W/M, check out this link -- cool stuff, with a long and interesting history waterinjection.info - Powered by vBulletin

Anyway, it might be less of a hassle to develop a "track tune" using, say, 100 AKI octane fuel and a "street tune" that is a little more forgiving for 91 or 93. Fewer surprises that way.

I can't say for 100% certainty without you being on a dyno, but my guess is -- none. You probably won't see any appreciable loss in whp until you creep up to 230 - 240.

Also, there's no reason to assume the engine is pulling timing unless you see it on a datalog. It probably doesn't do that until oil temps approach 280, which can get a bit risky at full tilt for sustained periods of time.

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Enjoy it. Destroy it.

LateralG'z

Thanks for the help

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2010 Mag Black, 6MT,

LateralG'z

Will do!

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2010 Mag Black, 6MT,

JB-370z

So it would not be worth it to buy a kit??

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ll Baker Tuning ll GTM ll Powerhouse Amuse ll HKS ll Up-Rev ll iForged ll AP Racing ll Pioneer ll SPL ll Bride ll Top Secret ll OS Giken ll
GTM Stage 2 Twin Turboed 370z (First in Texas, Thanks To Baker Tuning)

LateralG'z

I don't know either? It is really hot here in Ok & TX and in three weeks I will going back to the track. I will see how the car handles the heat. If my 1/3 mix race fuel/ 91 doesn't cut it, i will probably consider this. Plus race fuel is really expensive. Long term could be much cheaper.

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2010 Mag Black, 6MT,