STILLEN 370Z Supercharger System - Announcement!!!

Chris@FsP · 03-17-2010, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuTinmuch

Hm. Another question -- how much stress is this putting on the auto tranny?

I'd imagine the force means that obvious wear will happen faster, but will it be an excessive amount? There seems to be a lack of upgrade-ability so far for it.

I'd recommend a valve body upgrade for sure, and probably a higher stall tq converter while you're at it.

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Wow, man. Either Nissan fed you some misinformation or your engineers misunderstood what they were told. Nissan uses a 'hot wire' type mass air-flow sensor which most certainly does measure the density of the air. It does so by denser air causing a temperature drop or pressure drop. This, in turn, requires more voltage from the hot wire to equalize the intake temperature with the temperature of the hot wire itself. Nissan is not using a 'vane meter sensor' which would measure only air flow instead of air density and flow.

The reason Nissan uses 'draw through' on the OEM turbo cars is for longevity of the MAF. That and because a MAF in laminar air flow is much easier to tune. Granted, 'blow through' designs will certainly diminish the life of the MAF, but not drastically.

BTW, if anyone decided to adapt a BOV to your kit, the tune would fall on its face and the car would probably not even idle. "Draw through" MAF setups do not allow for anything but recirculation. You are not a tuner, so I will let you have a pass on that one. But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to your clients.

I don't post on here much, but this is starting to get annoying.

So are you a Nissan engineer? Have you signed a non disclosure agreement with Nissan? Stillen engineers collaborated with NISSAN engineers what don't you understand about that? If they have information you don't have to make a decision on the design of a product then why are you questioning the design? I mean did you have ANY hand in the development of the kit? If so then you may have a leg to stand on, but if you don't have any proprietary information from NISSAN then why are you giving them a hard time? Are you an engineer for some other company and you're looking for proprietary information through backdoor means? Something doesn't seem right here...

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcloud

I don't post on here much, but this is starting to get annoying.

So are you a Nissan engineer? Have you signed a non disclosure agreement with Nissan? Stillen engineers collaborated with NISSAN engineers what don't you understand about that? If they have information you don't have to make a decision on the design of a product then why are you questioning the design? I mean did you have ANY hand in the development of the kit? If so then you may have a leg to stand on, but if you don't have any proprietary information from NISSAN then why are you giving them a hard time? Are you an engineer for some other company and you're looking for proprietary information through backdoor means? Something doesn't seem right here...

Seriously? Paranoid much? The simple fact is that Nissan uses a 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensor and there is no secret or "inside information" on how 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensors work.

Kyle@STILLEN · 03-17-2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Wow, man. Either Nissan fed you some misinformation or your engineers misunderstood what they were told. Nissan uses a 'hot wire' type mass air-flow sensor which most certainly does measure the density of the air. It does so by denser air causing a temperature drop or pressure drop. This, in turn, requires more voltage from the hot wire to equalize the intake temperature with the temperature of the hot wire itself. Nissan is not using a 'vane meter sensor' which would measure only air flow instead of air density and flow.

The reason Nissan uses 'draw through' on the OEM turbo cars is for longevity of the MAF. That and because a MAF in laminar air flow is much easier to tune. Granted, 'blow through' designs will certainly diminish the life of the MAF, but not drastically.

BTW, if anyone decided to adapt a BOV to your kit, the tune would fall on its face and the car would probably not even idle. "Draw through" MAF setups do not allow for anything but recirculation. You are not a tuner, so I will let you have a pass on that one. But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to your clients.

That is absolutely what Nissan told us. Also a little FYI, one of the top tuner's for Nissan/Infiniti (UPrev) also recommends using a draw through MAF setup.

In regards to the car stumbling on its face with a blow off valve. You are correct...and incorrect...We are going to be using the Turbosmart blow off valve which is a two stage blow off valve. If you're simply driving around a parking lot then it will re-circ back through. When under hard driving it will blow off into atmosphere.

I might not be a tuner but I'm also not an idiot...I understand that by removing the metered air from the system that the car could potentially stumble and possibly die because you're taking the air away after it has already been metered...Don't need to be a tuner to understand that. I actually addressed this same question in the technical discussion thread.

DannyGT · 03-17-2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcloud

I don't post on here much, but this is starting to get annoying.

So are you a Nissan engineer? Have you signed a non disclosure agreement with Nissan? Stillen engineers collaborated with NISSAN engineers what don't you understand about that? If they have information you don't have to make a decision on the design of a product then why are you questioning the design? I mean did you have ANY hand in the development of the kit? If so then you may have a leg to stand on, but if you don't have any proprietary information from NISSAN then why are you giving them a hard time? Are you an engineer for some other company and you're looking for proprietary information through backdoor means? Something doesn't seem right here...

I dont think any of the information he's talking about is some sort of secret. He does sound knowledgable, I just dont know if its all accurate when referring to the 370Z. Either way - they are informative questions and I would like them answered because I didnt really know how the MAFs in our cars worked. Not a big deal...

EDIT: Thanks for answering that so fast Stillen! LOL

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

That is absolutely what Nissan told us. Also a little FYI, one of the top tuner's for Nissan/Infiniti (UPrev) also recommends using a draw through MAF setup.

In regards to the car stumbling on its face with a blow off valve. You are correct...and incorrect...We are going to be using the Turbosmart blow off valve which is a two stage blow off valve. If you're simply driving around a parking lot then it will re-circ back through. When under hard driving it will blow off into atmosphere.

I might not be a tuner but I'm also not an idiot...I understand that by removing the metered air from the system that the car could potentially stumble and possibly die because you're taking the air away after it has already been metered...Don't need to be a tuner to understand that. I actually addressed this same question in the technical discussion thread.

Thanks for the response. Hmmm.. I guess I need to pose the same question to the guys at Uprev. I truly would like to know how tuning for a 'draw through' setup on an OEM N/A car with an aftermarket F/I kit is better than tuning for 'blow through'. I do understand the advantages of 'draw through', but the tuning is what concerns me. The IATs are certainly different (much hotter) than what the MAF is calculating for. This is a fact.

Truly, I wasn't implying that you are an idiot. That whole tone/inflection thing. But, even if you use a two stage BOV that recircs as lower pressures, you could still achieve a rich condition when it vents to the atmosphere. Again, any BOV in a 'draw through' setup is certainly a problem.

EDIT - I don't want my question of does this Vortech blower sound better than its predecessors to be lost in the dialogue re: MAFs. Can we hear that bad boy?

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

Seriously? Paranoid much? The simple fact is that Nissan uses a 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensor and there is no secret or "inside information" on how 'hot wire' mass air-flow sensors work.

I honestly do not even know why I responded to your post. Simply, it was retarded.

Not paranoid, but annoyed at the fact that you're trying to discredit the design or find some flaw in it. I am an engineer and can see what you're trying to do. Granted you do sound very educated on this subject, but what are you trying to accomplish? Other people that do not have your knowledge will not fully understand what is going on. Are you trying to contribute to the community? In what way? What are your intentions?

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyGT

I dont think any of the information he's talking about is some sort of secret. He does sound knowledgable, I just dont know if its all accurate when referring to the 370Z. Either way - they are informative questions and I would like them answered because I didnt really know how the MAFs in our cars worked. Not a big deal...

EDIT: Thanks for answering that so fast Stillen! LOL

You may be right DannyGT, but if you read into his questions from a systems engineering point of view you will see where he is coming from.

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcloud

Not paranoid, but annoyed at the fact that you're trying to discredit the design or find some flaw in it. I am an engineer and can see what you're trying to do. Granted you do sound very educated on this subject, but what are you trying to accomplish? Other people that do not have your knowledge will not fully understand what is going on. Are you trying to contribute to the community? In what way? What are your intentions?

It's not about discrediting the design or finding flaw. It's about addressing what are obvious (to me) fundamental design issues. These issues can lead to problems for the buyers. If Stillen can give solid technical reasoning as to why they are going against MAF tuning 101, then I will be satiated and happy to have learned something in the process. I am not a tuner, nor do I purport to be. But, I am educated as I have been spending my hard-earned money on modifying cars for years. Granted, others may not quite understand what I am asking, but if there is a technical issue with the safety/longevity of the kit, then most will walk away understanding this if Stillen cannot readily explain it away.

Again, as I have said in multiple posts, I am trying to help the community by making sure that vendors are honest about the wares they are hawking. If this kit is measuring air temperatures pre-compressor of 60 degrees F and the temp being blown into the intake is post-compressor and 200 degrees F (just an exaggerated example), the ECU is receiving the 60 degree temps and compensating for this instead of 200. Can't you see the issue and the danger? Wouldn't you want to know this about a kit you were going to spend 6k on and put on a 40k car?

And, once more, just for clarification. If Stillen can answer these questions with solid technical answers that are legitimate in nature, I will certainly understand and be happy to have furthered my knowledge.

Chris@FsP · 03-17-2010, 02:46 PM

Too bad the OEM 370Z ecu doesn't use a speed density-based system, and we could ditch the MAF all together

Chris@FsP · 03-17-2010, 02:53 PM

The JWT TT kit for the 350Z utilizes a draw-through maf design as well. It may not be ideal, but it has seemed to work out fine for JWT.

Kastley85891 · 03-17-2010, 03:03 PM

- two words - SPEED DENSITY -

Lets hope we can get rid of the MAF based system all together one day heh?

Fail safe perf - you beat me to it... ;-) I am more then in agreement - so much smoother, let alone accurate.

Nice

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FailsafePerf

Too bad the OEM 370Z ecu doesn't use a speed density-based system, and we could ditch the MAF all together

MAP, from what I understand, is much harder to tune for proper AFR across the spectrum. But, certainly much safer than MAF tuning.

Good to see you on here, bro. How's business? Shoot me a PM for response. Don't want to get barked at for taking the thread OT.

stormcrow · 03-17-2010, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FailsafePerf

The JWT TT kit for the 350Z utilizes a draw-through maf design as well. It may not be ideal, but it has seemed to work out fine for JWT.

But this is only because Scott Bush installs and tunes them using voodoo.

bigcloud · 03-17-2010, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormcrow

It's not about discrediting the design or finding flaw. It's about addressing what are obvious (to me) fundamental design issues. These issues can lead to problems for the buyers. If Stillen can give solid technical reasoning as to why they are going against MAF tuning 101, then I will be satiated and happy to have learned something in the process. I am not a tuner, nor do I purport to be. But, I am educated as I have been spending my hard-earned money on modifying cars for years. Granted, others may not quite understand what I am asking, but if there is a technical issue with the safety/longevity of the kit, then most will walk away understanding this if Stillen cannot readily explain it away.

Again, as I have said in multiple posts, I am trying to help the community by making sure that vendors are honest about the wares they are hawking. If this kit is measuring air temperatures pre-compressor of 60 degrees F and the temp being blown into the intake is post-compressor and 200 degrees F (just an exaggerated example), the ECU is receiving the 60 degree temps and compensating for this instead of 200. Can't you see the issue and the danger? Wouldn't you want to know this about a kit you were going to spend 6k on and put on a 40k car?

And, once more, just for clarification. If Stillen can answer these questions with solid technical answers that are legitimate in nature, I will certainly understand and be happy to have furthered my knowledge.

I can respect your opinion then. Thanks.

03-17-2010, 03:03 PM	#162 (permalink)
Kastley85891 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ATX 370 - Sold Posts: 1,149 Drives: 2003 Wagon Rep Power: 18	- two words - SPEED DENSITY - Lets hope we can get rid of the MAF based system all together one day heh? Fail safe perf - you beat me to it... ;-) I am more then in agreement - so much smoother, let alone accurate. Nice __________________ Boosted V8 hunter 2850 lbs and 375WHP Last edited by Kastley85891; 03-17-2010 at 03:12 PM.

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03-17-2010, 02:46 PM	#160 (permalink)
Chris@FsP Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 430 Drives: 2008 350Z TT Rep Power: 369	Too bad the OEM 370Z ecu doesn't use a speed density-based system, and we could ditch the MAF all together

03-17-2010, 02:53 PM	#161 (permalink)
Chris@FsP Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 430 Drives: 2008 350Z TT Rep Power: 369	The JWT TT kit for the 350Z utilizes a draw-through maf design as well. It may not be ideal, but it has seemed to work out fine for JWT.