A2A Supercharged Intake Options
 

So awhile ago, I wanted to break the A2A discussions in to separate threads due to the massiveness and great usefulness of the current two threads.

Here I would like to discuss some ways to increase the efficiency of the kit from the supercharger suction side.

Bewhitey came up with a 3D printable induction tube that requires extensive radiator support modification.

I recently ordered some components to try and make something similar that will require less support modification. Essentially, it would be some 3.5" silicone tubing with some aluminum support bits. The route would be (it sounds complicated right now, I know):
Supercharge intake,
to 3.5" silicone coupling,
to 3.5" x ~4" long aluminum tube,
to another section of 3.5" silicone tubing that would pass through the hole on the driver's side similar to the intake Y pipe on the passenger side,
to an aluminum 90 degree bend,
to a much larger intake filter, similar to what Bewhitey used, but skinnier, I think

I get the parts on Saturday while I'm out of town, so Sunday after church I plan to try to get everything cut and assembled, as well as get some data logs to compare.

What I've ordered:
HPS (HTST-3F-350-BLK) Black 3.5" x 3' Long Straight Silicone Hose Coupler Tube
1 x Vibrant 12055 3.5" O.D. Aluminum Joiner Coupling
1 x Spectre Performance 9732 Universal Clamp-On Air Filter: Round Tapered; 3 in/3.5 in/4 in Flange ID; 8.75 in Height; 6 in Base
1 x Ispeedytech 3.5" Performance 90 Degree Tight Radius hose Cast Aluminum Turbo Elbow pipe 89 mm

The reason for the coupler in the middle is to reduce the length of unsupported silicone tubing and prevent collapse under vacuum. This may or may not be an issue, as I'm looking for about 12psi, but I figure better safe than sorry.

Any input or discussion would be fantastic!

just bought my kit so I'm excited to see if someone comes up with modifications on it.

Here's what my shop designed and made. Not cheap but the best I've seen for replacing the current filter that comes with the A to A kit.

What psi are you making with that?

This has been on my radar for awhile, just haven’t had my car to start on it. My ideas involve 3D printing. How do you plan to transition from the supercharger to the “hole”? It’s not a straight shot. And 3.5” tube? I think even the admin tuning 3” intake resulted in having to squeeze the tube to make it fit.

https://youtu.be/pX4UYlCjPY0 9:07 mark.

I’m making 12.76 with the stock filter. What are your thoughts on that? Not convinced it’s a good thing... supposedly from tuners cam timing. No idea what power it’s making.

Yep!

So the parts came in early. Some cutting is required, but it doesn't seem like it will be a crazy amount. Modifications will be similar to (but more than) how the charge Y pipe came through the passenger side. I've had a lot of distractions yesterday and today, but tomorrow I should be able to get it all done.

There's no way to get any kind of aluminum coupler in there, so I'm toying with cutting it to about 1.5-2" wide and using it that way to still provide some support. We'll see.

So, I got it all together and on the car (pictures to follow). I did run into the issue that I thought I might though. There is a long (~12") of silicone intake tubing that has no support. Under full throttle, the tubing partially collapses under the vacuum generated by the supercharger. It is completely fine for daily driving, but continued tuning will have to wait until I can come up with a way to provide support against collapse inside the tube....

So group thinking with Eugene (ByThaBay), I think I will grab some PVC to epoxy to the outside to provide support to the silicone tubing. I apologize for the lack of pictures.

Pictures
 

Sorry about the wait, here are pictures from my adventures. I have some more to take, but here are some.

To fix the tubing collapse problem, I bought some 3" PVC pipe from Lowe's. It has a 3.5" outer diameter, so it made it very convenient to use from the inside for support. I cut about a one inch wide piece and placed it inside the silicone tubing right before it transitions through the rectangular area of the radiator support.

Test drive showed that everything held strong until about 10psi, when based on pressure meter readings, the tube might have collapsed again.

My plan is to cut another piece about the same width, and place it before the transition through the rectangular area to prevent the collapse from happening.

I will get pictures of this piece when I complete it.

Should this work (and I'm pretty confident it will), I will make a separate thread detailing exactly what I did in case anybody wants to do the same thing.

Thanks for following!

Looks good. I'm curious to see how less restrictive it is compared to the stock filter.

What did you use to remove the metal that sits in front of the rectangular plastic piece?

My last dyno tune with this said a 10psi tune.

I used a Dremel with metal cutting wheels for all the required cutting and smoothing. Ive gone through approximately 7 wheel so far...

Rough look at some comparison logs and where I'm at currently with setup yields very promising results.

Topz says that I should be getting 15-16 psi with my setup (he's seen more results from his kit than I have, so I trust him on this). Setup is Si impeller, 9 psi pulley serp-side, and 3.15-3.00 high traction pulleys SC-side.

Filter off datalogging netted me about 12 psi @ 6200 RPM
OLD filter on datalogging netted me 5 psi @ 6200 RPM
NEW intake setup datalogging netted me 10.5 psi @ 5600 RPM

I can't find evidence of tubing collapse in the recent logs, but I thought I saw it, so I immediately eased off the throttle.

The air intake of this SC is keeping me hesitant to buy this SC kit.

Could a person just hack the front radiator support to get a more open shot to the SC intake?

From what I see, there may not be much more that can be hacked in Post #10. Can't tell for sure, but looks like there is some material to be cut right next to the radiator/condenser....

A solution is coming out soon, with other goodies.

Do not let the filter stop you. Changes are coming, but even without them, the kits make great economical power.

I agree with Senna, don't let the intake stop you! I cut a bit away and did my own intake, as you can see from the pictures (Post 10 of this thread). I am working on finishing it still, but it seems pretty "janky", even though it won't look bad. The stock, non-Nismo bumper cover doesn't like an air filter of that size right there though, so it feels weird putting everything back together.

Bewhitey, another forum dude, 3D printed and posted the blueprints for an intake option, along with part numbers, so there's another option. His option required a little more cutting than I was comfortable with, which is whyI worked on my own solution. Follow this link: http://www.the370z.com/forced-induct...ml#post3804080

Optimiser worked wit a shop for his option (Post 3 of this thread)

There would be a solution by the time your filter got dirty enough to make a real difference, in my opinion. I haven't seen anyone do a "before and after cleaning" post or anything like that. I wouldn't be expecting dyno, but pressures would be nice.

My plan once I can get in there, is to go for a FULL 4" to 3.5" at the supercharger inlet, or at least a full 3.5" intake. The plan is to hollow out the hole as much as possible so that its surface area (which is in the shape of a rectangle) is equivalent to 3.5"/4" diameter circle with smooth transitions to 4" or 3.5" circle at each end... ready for an elbow or filter, with one extra something special. This is a rough idea of the most critical part. Will be using my 3D printer. PLA or NYLON with silicone couplers/sheets and steel zip ties for connecting the rectangular sections.

Have you thought of using a spring inside the silicone tube? It works great with radiator hoses to keep them from collapsing.

I did think about that, but I was scared that the spring may come loose if jostled, so I shied away from it. That was me thinking of a traditional spring though. The PVC looks to be doing its job of keeping the tube from collapsing, so I may be finished! I've cut another piece of PVC to put between the SC and the pass-through rectangular portion if I feel like I need to.

Turtle, how are things coming along, and what’s the size of your air filter. Mine showed up today. Here’s a quick shot with a 4” pvc pipe going into a 6” wide velocity stack :)

Whew, that's big! haha. You might have trouble getting that to fit behind the bumper.

Things are going fine. I need to reinforce the area between the rectangular pass-through and the SC. I am getting tube collapse around 10 psi, so I hope that this will correct that. I attempted to epoxy the silicone tube to the side of the radiator support, but it seems to either have failed or not held at all. I am also interested in what Topgunz is doing with that transition piece. I think that piece will solve all the issues. I hope to get more support in there Friday.

Yep, it's big. I could actually go bigger I think. I have a Nismo bumper, and I've already gotten this setup test fitted with the bumper on. Topgunz said his design does not require any support removal, which if it uses a round tube, is going to limit the size of the tube/pipe. I've also seen the filter used and also the pipe in the picture posted. I'm sure it will be fine for most folks and quality and installation will be easier for folks. For my project, I wanted something different. A full 4" intake with massive filter and velocity stack, so that's the route I am taking. Unlike a turbo, an SC cannot work harder to make up for intake restrictions, like a bad intake/filter design. So, the easier it is to suck in the air, the more power it will make.

I have an idea for you, that I may use on my parts too. Coat your intake parts with truck bed liner. That might give them enough stiffness to prevent collapse, assuming it can get a good hold on the outside of your pipe, which might be a problem now that I think about it. In my case, it will add toughness and help to keep the 3D parts from breaking up and coming apart.

Do you know how/or if possible, to remove just the Supercharger and pulleys on the backside? Looking for room to slide stuff in the hole from that side of it.

I was finally able to put something together and test my 4” intake. I haven’t inspected my logs, but boost gauge peaked at over 14 psi. 14.1 and I think I saw 14.6 too. This is on the stock kit, also with motordyne headers. It was 35 degrees and 470’ above sea level.

EDIT:

Looking at one 3rd gear pull I hit ~14.8 / 14.9 psi at 6688 RPM!

I guess I’ll call this the Big Black Python intake.

So Eugene says boost should continue to climb even past 15 psi at 6600. Might be something going on. It slowly drops after that instead. So, anyone ever seen a stock pulley setup continue on past 15? It looks like it could just be this SC running out of steam and not being able to supply a continuous 15 psi as revs increase past 6600 on the stock pulley. But Eugene doesn’t think so. Thoughts?

BTW, Does the rate of pressure loss, as seen in the video below, seem reasonable? I had read this rate of loss is OK. I addressed any obvious leaks, except for a bit coming from the MAF sensors.

https://youtu.be/-7ZPmLl_7xI

In my opinion, I think that you lose efficiency and may have air escaping once you get past a certain speed. I see the same thing in my logs, where boost peaks and then tapers off at top end, around 7kish RPM

Yeah, mine used to taper, or not rise as fast. But now after 15 psi, it very slowly drops. Given my boost pressure test to 20 psi, I’m probably not leaking much. There really isn’t anything that could collapse. I’m already at 80 duty cycle and I over purchased for all my fuel components. 485 pump, S1.SE with the new rails, and 1050x that was supposed to be good for well over 600 WHP. Should have gone for 1300s, but no one indicated I’d need that. In fact I have the same components as the Topgunz ACE kit car. I’m on pump and have already hit 80%. It breathes very easily now with a 4” intake I guess.

Since no one wants to buy the fuel pump assembly that I accidentally bought back at the beginning of the year, I am toying with making a custom harness and putting an OEM (maybe upgrade the pump later) fuel pump assembly behind the driver's seat. This would both combat the fuel starvation issue as well as provide more flow. But that's for a different thread haha. I'm currently with CJM S1-SE with an Aeromotive 340lph and ID1050x.

I definitely think that you are going to get maximum flow with the 4" intake. The reason I didn't go higher than 3.5" is because the manifold pressure with the 3.5 setup is so closely resembled the filterless datalogging that I did earlier in the year after initial installation on this car. I should research the science behind velocity stacking, since that may aid in suction efficiency, which led to the higher pressures you see.

Here is the science behind the velocity stack.

http://www.profblairandassociates.co...mouth_Sept.pdf

I was going to model my own custom stack based on this article. Still may, but I already had the 6” to 4” stack sitting in my MR2 so I used that one instead.

This issue I see with doing anything larger than about 3” is the rectangular section just doesn’t allow for a large round shape. At this point my 3D part through that section is right at the equivalent of a 3.9” dia pipe.

Here is a graph showing how small increases in pipe diameter have a large effect on square area. So every little bit helps. Also the model I created.

I like what you did and are doing. Please keep us posted. I did similar sims before but didn't take too much time to look at the underlying principle. What inspired me was the Vortech bellmouth, but just for fun frankly as I was already satisfied with the power I was having. Anyway, always glad to see more engineering inventions. Interesting. ^_^

I seem to be having fuel pressure issues. On a 10 psi run and taking video of fuel pressure gauge it didn’t rise more than 5 psi, if that. This is probably my duty cycle issue.

Here’s a 15.2 peak psi boost gauge photo.

What software are you using for 3D modeling?

Autodesk Fusion 360. It’s a pain in the butt!!


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Hey guys, maybe I am way outta line here! But, why the heck all of the effort to squeeze an intake through the radiator support?

The radiator support on our cars is just a plastic structure that has nearly zero value as a crash integrity structure, so why not just window the area that we need an intake tube to go through?

Please excuse me if I am asking a naive question. I am planning on getting the TG ACE kit, and all of this effort about a clean way to bring intake air into the SC has me researching a lot. I have looked at pictures of the 370Z and G37 front end and radiator supports and am just wondering why not hack it up? It's not going to rust away.....

Turtle and I both did plenty of hacking. Did you see where he went through 7 cutting wheels or something like that? So, we’re hacking, we’re just not removing all of it like one guy did. As for my approach, I didn’t want to be limited to a tube shape because as you can see, you can’t fit a large tube in there, and that greatly affects the surface area of the intake.

Maybe I'm naive. I haven't personally fully disassembled the front end on my Q60....yet. But, looking at the pics of the core support, it almost seems that you could section-out the core support, completely, and have enough room for a round tube intake. And the consequences would be nil, I guess??
Attachment 140017

I guess there are AC lines right there also?

And metal, and a headlight, more metal, bumper attachment point , a supercharger inlet that doesn’t line up with anything, etc.