Topgunz - air to air upgrade

redondoaveb · 06-20-2018, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

I would spray some CRC dressing on the serp belt and data log the boost for a few street pulls. Then spray the SC belt and data log. That way you can determine where the slip comes into affect. I dont think its the filter as there is no reason it would just choke out and stop breathing completely like in the chart. It would be gradual and hold more of a straight line than a plunge.

Seb didn't think it was belt slip but like he said, he's on a learning curve with superchargers. I have the tbatt upgrade, do you think I could still be getting belt slip on the serpentine side? I guess most likely it's would be on the sc side. I had the same issue on my first tune with him too, prior to installing the 2.85 pulley. I'll talk to Seb about doing some data log runs with the belt dressing on each side. Thanks for the insight.

turtle64b · 06-20-2018, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redondoaveb

Seb didn't think it was belt slip but like he said, he's on a learning curve with superchargers. I have the tbatt upgrade, do you think I could still be getting belt slip on the serpentine side? I guess most likely it's would be on the sc side. I had the same issue on my first tune with him too, prior to installing the 2.85 pulley. I'll talk to Seb about doing some data log runs with the belt dressing on each side. Thanks for the insight.

I've put belt dressing on both sides of both new belts and I have the TBatt pulley and the Si impeller and the 9lb pulley. I only make 8.5spsi @ 7k RPM on the street (3rd gear pulls)... Seb made almost 10psi on the stock 8lb pulley on someone else's car on a dyno (generally done in 5th gear).

I don't say that to knock anybody or anything, but to give you a data point if your street data looks different from your dyno data.

I haven't been able to get on a dyno yet to see pressure there since I went to the 9lb pulley.

The thing I have yet to do is use a thermal imager on the pulleys to see if any of them are heating up more than the others because of the frictional heat from belt slip (if that is the issue).

If you have any questions with what I've done to ensure that the issue is not with the engine, I'll be happy to talk to you about it. I can also trade logs with you if you'd like just for comparison to see if we're seeing proportional and similar performance.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind, do you have the 928 bearings?

redondoaveb · 06-20-2018, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtle64b

I've put belt dressing on both sides of both new belts and I have the TBatt pulley and the Si impeller and the 9lb pulley. I only make 8.5spsi @ 7k RPM on the street (3rd gear pulls)... Seb made almost 10psi on the stock 8lb pulley on someone else's car on a dyno (generally done in 5th gear).

I don't say that to knock anybody or anything, but to give you a data point if your street data looks different from your dyno data.

I haven't been able to get on a dyno yet to see pressure there since I went to the 9lb pulley.

The thing I have yet to do is use a thermal imager on the pulleys to see if any of them are heating up more than the others because of the frictional heat from belt slip (if that is the issue).

If you have any questions with what I've done to ensure that the issue is not with the engine, I'll be happy to talk to you about it. I can also trade logs with you if you'd like just for comparison to see if we're seeing proportional and similar performance.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind, do you have the 928 bearings?

I called Vortech and the tech guy said most likely belt slippage and if I have slippage there should be belt dust and suggests high traction pulleys.

I checked and I have a lot of belt dust below/around the jackshaft pulley in the sc side so I'm definitely getting belt slippage. There is no belt dust around the sc pulley but the 2.85 I bought is a high traction. No belt dust anywhere on the serpentine side. I went ahead and ordered the high traction jackshaft pulley. Wondering if I should go ahead and change the sc belt also?

I don't have the 928 bearings and I know the bearings could be living on borrowed time.

Also, all of my logs were done on the dyno in SZ shop. I haven't done any data logging on the street. I made a little over 10psi with Si sc and 9lb pulley on the dyno.

turtle64b · 06-23-2018, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redondoaveb

I called Vortech and the tech guy said most likely belt slippage and if I have slippage there should be belt dust and suggests high traction pulleys.

I checked and I have a lot of belt dust below/around the jackshaft pulley in the sc side so I'm definitely getting belt slippage. There is no belt dust around the sc pulley but the 2.85 I bought is a high traction. No belt dust anywhere on the serpentine side. I went ahead and ordered the high traction jackshaft pulley. Wondering if I should go ahead and change the sc belt also?

Can you guys give the part numbers or link for the pulleys that you picked up from Vortech? Or let me know how you communicated your needs to Vortech. I want to change up my pulleys now for the high traction design given my lower-than-expected boost issue to see if that might help. The CRC dressing got me .3 more psi haha

I saw this one, Part# 2A038, on the Vortech website. It is the same part number for the "normal" 8-rib supercharger drive pulley and the "high-traction" pulleys...

The high traction category doesn't have a 3.4 option... Otherwise, I'd go back to the 8lb serp side and do the 3.4-3.0 jackshaft-SC on the SC side like Topz

I was thinking of keeping the 9lb serp side and ordering two 3.15 (is this what y'all are calling the 3.2?) high traction to replace the SC side.

And to answer the question, you might as well replace the belt, knowing that you've worn the belt a bit and having everything apart.

G3RSTY7 · 06-20-2018, 08:15 PM

This is all good info. Is anyone here running more than 1 breather filter on their PCV/crankcase vent hose? We ran into issues after tuning closed loop then going to open loop so I had to take it apart and look. Found that my 5/8 hose leading to crankcase vent was kinked trying to make the bend, so I put in a 3/4” brass elbow. Also cleaned and calibrated my wideband O2 (not yet wired to ecu) and downstreamo2 but don’t think that’s causing the issue.
Seb sent me this
“Since you have breather filters on the larger 5\8 VC ports I suggest you put the PCVs on breather filters as well. One thing that occurs is since you have breather filters on the larger ports you've essentially created a vac leak with the intake manifold going to the PCVs.“
Any idea where he’s thinking? The only place i can think is putting another T and a filter right at the PCV valve.

redondoaveb · 06-20-2018, 09:10 PM

Here's how Seb did mine. Pic is drivers side. Passenger side has hose running from pcv to rear of engine compartment and filter installed on end of hose. Couldn't get pic of that.

G3RSTY7 · 06-20-2018, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redondoaveb

Here's how Seb did mine. Pic is drivers side. Passenger side has hose running from pcv to rear of engine compartment and filter installed on end of hose. Couldn't get pic of that.

Thanks that’s really helpful I think I get what you’re saying. So look at the pic of my breather filter and you can see that hose just next to it on the upper left with the blue octagon, he deleted that hose and just put a filter there? And my other pic there is a T joint (where that same hose splits off to the blue octagon port), instead of that T joint he just capped that part of the hose with filter also?
Thanks for the help a big reason i wanted to do this was to learn my engine bay, and imma learn today!

redondoaveb · 06-20-2018, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G3RSTY7

Thanks that’s really helpful I think I get what you’re saying. So look at the pic of my breather filter and you can see that hose just next to it on the upper left with the blue octagon, he deleted that hose and just put a filter there? And my other pic there is a T joint (where that same hose splits off to the blue octagon port), instead of that T joint he just capped that part of the hose with filter also?
Thanks for the help a big reason i wanted to do this was to learn my engine bay, and imma learn today!

First pic is correct. Second pic, he deleted the tee completely and ran a hose off the pcv valve to the rear of the engine bay and installed a filter on the end of the hose.

And when I was looking at mine I noticed the passenger side has a kink in it right after it exits the pcv valve.

cupcakez · 06-21-2018, 12:20 PM

So with the a2a kit, I understand that the PCV is removed. This means the combustion vapor (water/fuel) other stuff will stay in the engine and cause more sludge/deposits.
The PCV system ventilates the crankcase.

Could this be a possible negative effect in the long run for the engine, or am I understanding something wrong?

Anyone can shed some light on this?

TopgunZ · 06-21-2018, 12:51 PM

No, its vented to atmosphere

redondoaveb · 06-21-2018, 02:25 PM

I was able to disconnect my passenger side pcv hose and re-route it. No more kink.

turtle64b · 06-24-2018, 01:29 PM

I went ahead and picked up some high traction pulleys today. Where did you guys get the 3" smooth idler from for the SC side or what did y'all do instead? I thought someone just custom fit a nut in there or something that allowed the stock idler to move up further.

Thanks!

redondoaveb · 06-24-2018, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtle64b

I went ahead and picked up some high traction pulleys today. Where did you guys get the 3" smooth idler from for the SC side or what did y'all do instead? I thought someone just custom fit a nut in there or something that allowed the stock idler to move up further.

Thanks!

I think I saw a post where someone did do the "nut" thing but why not spend $25.00 and get the Gates #36225 idler pulley.

TBatt · 06-25-2018, 08:50 AM

If you are going with the A2A upgrade from a stock Stillen kit and go the 9psi route you will need my kit to prevent belt slippage. You will be driving the supercharger with about 60 hp and the belt will slip. Some have been slipping at 8 psi.

The stock Nissan belt tensioner will take up the slack of going to a smaller jackshaft pulley (Stillen 9psi) but the contact area of the drive belt goes down and that will cause slip, Add in the extra load on the belt to drive the SC faster and more slip.

To try and keep things simple, the serpentine belt is the main drive belt and is a long 7 rib belt that connects the crankshaft pulley to all of the other main drive pulleys (including the supercharger jackshaft).

The other belt is the supercharger drive belt (small 8 rib belt) that connects the jackshaft to the supercharger. You can get to 9psi by replacing the SC pulley with a 2.95 inch pulley from Vortech (part number 2A038-295). If you go that route the drive belt tensioner will not have enough adjustment range to take up the belt slack due to the SC having a smaller diameter pulley. To fix that you will need to replace the idler pulley on the SC drive with a 76mm (Gates 36225).

I'm running the 2.95 Vortech pulley along with my extra idler pulley setup and am getting close to 9.5 psi. YMMV

MoulaZ · 06-26-2018, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBatt

If you are going with the A2A upgrade from a stock Stillen kit and go the 9psi route you will need my kit to prevent belt slippage. You will be driving the supercharger with about 60 hp and the belt will slip. Some have been slipping at 8 psi.

...

Speaking of your kit. Thought I'd share what I found recently. Don't know if you recall but I mentioned that I had an unusual loud whining noise after switching to your kit. Turns out some parts of the belt had sections of the sepertine teeth missing.

I ended up checking all idlers, 2 of them had bad bearings, 1 was atrocious and probably the reason for the noise (it was the smooth idler, not the 2 grooved ones). Could this have caused the damage with my belt or did the belt make the bearings worse?

Also, since as of tomorrow I'm a Boosted Performance Snail member, the SC kit is for sale, but I'd like to replace the belt for the unknown buyer. What is the belt model?

Cheers,

06-20-2018, 08:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
G3RSTY7 Base Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Colorado Posts: 103 Drives: Infiniti G37s 6MT Rep Power: 8	This is all good info. Is anyone here running more than 1 breather filter on their PCV/crankcase vent hose? We ran into issues after tuning closed loop then going to open loop so I had to take it apart and look. Found that my 5/8 hose leading to crankcase vent was kinked trying to make the bend, so I put in a 3/4” brass elbow. Also cleaned and calibrated my wideband O2 (not yet wired to ecu) and downstreamo2 but don’t think that’s causing the issue. Seb sent me this “Since you have breather filters on the larger 5\8 VC ports I suggest you put the PCVs on breather filters as well. One thing that occurs is since you have breather filters on the larger ports you've essentially created a vac leak with the intake manifold going to the PCVs.“ Any idea where he’s thinking? The only place i can think is putting another T and a filter right at the PCV valve. __________________ 09 G37S RWD 6MT, Topgunz Supercharger, CJM RFS, Walbro 450, 1050x, Nismo 1.5way LSD, Ecutek FF tuned by Seb IG: G3RSTY7 MyG37.com: RickyBobby Last edited by G3RSTY7; 06-20-2018 at 08:23 PM.

06-21-2018, 12:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
TopgunZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,651 Drives: 06 350Z , 09 370Z MT Rep Power: 6834	No, its vented to atmosphere __________________ ROTREX SUPERCHARGER TUNER KITS - $6799/ CUSTOM STILLEN AIR TO AIR KITS -$2100/ 700+ WHP!! WWW.TOPGUNSPEEDWORKS.COM

06-25-2018, 08:50 AM	#14 (permalink)
TBatt Track Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 832 Drives: 2019 GT-R Rep Power: 20169	If you are going with the A2A upgrade from a stock Stillen kit and go the 9psi route you will need my kit to prevent belt slippage. You will be driving the supercharger with about 60 hp and the belt will slip. Some have been slipping at 8 psi. The stock Nissan belt tensioner will take up the slack of going to a smaller jackshaft pulley (Stillen 9psi) but the contact area of the drive belt goes down and that will cause slip, Add in the extra load on the belt to drive the SC faster and more slip. To try and keep things simple, the serpentine belt is the main drive belt and is a long 7 rib belt that connects the crankshaft pulley to all of the other main drive pulleys (including the supercharger jackshaft). The other belt is the supercharger drive belt (small 8 rib belt) that connects the jackshaft to the supercharger. You can get to 9psi by replacing the SC pulley with a 2.95 inch pulley from Vortech (part number 2A038-295). If you go that route the drive belt tensioner will not have enough adjustment range to take up the belt slack due to the SC having a smaller diameter pulley. To fix that you will need to replace the idler pulley on the SC drive with a 76mm (Gates 36225). I'm running the 2.95 Vortech pulley along with my extra idler pulley setup and am getting close to 9.5 psi. YMMV __________________ RJM pedal, Hotchkis Sway Bars, FI TDX, FOG Light, Z1 Slotted Drilled rotors, Stillen SC, Quaife ATB, Z1 Oil cooler, AEM Gauge Set, Galeforce gauge mount, Avant Garde M590 Hypersilver w/RE-11, TopgunZ A2A kit., ECUtek tuned by Seb: ROLL TIDE!

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06-21-2018, 12:20 PM	#9 (permalink)
cupcakez Track Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: California Posts: 635 Drives: 2009-7AT-Base-Coup Rep Power: 4836	So with the a2a kit, I understand that the PCV is removed. This means the combustion vapor (water/fuel) other stuff will stay in the engine and cause more sludge/deposits. The PCV system ventilates the crankcase. Could this be a possible negative effect in the long run for the engine, or am I understanding something wrong? Anyone can shed some light on this?

06-24-2018, 01:29 PM	#12 (permalink)
turtle64b Track Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Granbury, TX Posts: 550 Drives: '11 SC Blue 7AT Rep Power: 3366	I went ahead and picked up some high traction pulleys today. Where did you guys get the 3" smooth idler from for the SC side or what did y'all do instead? I thought someone just custom fit a nut in there or something that allowed the stock idler to move up further. Thanks!