Vit's FI TT 370Z Lives!

Elmo370z · 09-15-2016, 11:53 PM

So i plan to stay N/A, Hopefully in the near future I"ll be able to afford a dry sump and B.R. billet crank to build the bottom end to rev safely rev to 9k. Similar to OnPoint DYno's 350z, do you think ecu tek would be more than plenty or could this kit greatly improve tuning capabilities over ecu tek.

VitViper · 09-16-2016, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhill

Could you elaborate on what you mean by it's a target driven traction control with a feedback. So in other words my wheels are slipping what happens now? In a conventional system it cuts timing and throttle to cut power until traction is regained, what does the stand alone do different to regain traction?

The goal of any good TC system is to run the car at the limit at the tire without hurting acceleration. The M1 does this with ease.

The stock ECU sucks at this, as it's designed to keep you from wrecking and nothing more.

ECUTek will never touch the logic in the motec, I've already spent a lot of time adjusting settings and with a turbo car you'll still spin the tire (especially 1st gear) even if you pull AALL the timing out of it (this motor just makes a ton of torque with twins lol). I have an intricate timing + throttle pull on my ECUTek map, the results are "meh" and nowhere near optimal. Better than the stock VDC, but not even 1% of a motec, lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo370z

So i plan to stay N/A, Hopefully in the near future I"ll be able to afford a dry sump and B.R. billet crank to build the bottom end to rev safely rev to 9k. Similar to OnPoint DYno's 350z, do you think ecu tek would be more than plenty or could this kit greatly improve tuning capabilities over ecu tek.

Yes this will in at least one facet -- you can setup a shift light module in the car to let you know when you're at 9k or higher -- the stock tach goes to 9k but the CAN bus RPM data only goes to 8400, trust me. lol

Beyond that I can't really answer that -- everyone has their own goals and needs. I just converted an 07 Civic Si to an M1 and built the car a dual fuel system firmware package for the ECU -- goes between E85 and M5 fuel at the flip of a switch in the car (4 cylinder 2.5L motor with 8 injectors, 2 pumps, 2 regulators. eg, two complete and segregated fuel systems run by the ECU based on driver demand).

Jhill · 09-16-2016, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitViper

The goal of any good TC system is to run the car at the limit at the tire without hurting acceleration. The M1 does this with ease.

The stock ECU sucks at this, as it's designed to keep you from wrecking and nothing more.

ECUTek will never touch the logic in the motec, I've already spent a lot of time adjusting settings and with a turbo car you'll still spin the tire (especially 1st gear) even if you pull AALL the timing out of it (this motor just makes a ton of torque with twins lol). I have an intricate timing + throttle pull on my ECUTek map, the results are "meh" and nowhere near optimal. Better than the stock VDC, but not even 1% of a motec, lol

Yes this will in at least one facet -- you can setup a shift light module in the car to let you know when you're at 9k or higher -- the stock tach goes to 9k but the CAN bus RPM data only goes to 8400, trust me. lol

Beyond that I can't really answer that -- everyone has their own goals and needs. I just converted an 07 Civic Si to an M1 and built the car a dual fuel system firmware package for the ECU -- goes between E85 and M5 fuel at the flip of a switch in the car (4 cylinder 2.5L motor with 8 injectors, 2 pumps, 2 regulators. eg, two complete and segregated fuel systems run by the ECU based on driver demand).

So if I am understanding this right then it sound like your controlling traction based of a predetermined allowable toque output so you never break traction in the first place? Vs a conventional system that is all cause and effect (slip then react). So wouldn't you need to recalculate your table everytime there is a change (tire, track, weather etc.)?

VitViper · 09-16-2016, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhill

So if I am understanding this right then it sound like your controlling traction based of a predetermined allowable toque output so you never break traction in the first place? Vs a conventional system that is all cause and effect (slip then react). So wouldn't you need to recalculate your table everytime there is a change (tire, track, weather etc.)?

Torque has nothing to do with it. There's a set target driven speed based on a ratio off the non driven speed. Acceleration always requires some slip -- the optimal amount is the limit of the tire. You figure this out, plug it in, and it just holds you on the tire. No "error -> correct" ******** from PID or gain based systems.

And you have the ability to trim the system with the dial to adjust for wet/cold/hot changes. In the case of the Z, it'll be adjustable with the cruise buttons.

Jhill · 09-17-2016, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitViper

Torque has nothing to do with it. There's a set target driven speed based on a ratio off the non driven speed. Acceleration always requires some slip -- the optimal amount is the limit of the tire. You figure this out, plug it in, and it just holds you on the tire. No "error -> correct" ******** from PID or gain based systems.

And you have the ability to trim the system with the dial to adjust for wet/cold/hot changes. In the case of the Z, it'll be adjustable with the cruise buttons.

Lol ok so in still confused. If at any time you get frustrated explaining yourself just say and I'll stop but in really interested in how this works. So my ecutek tune is adjustable through cruise like yours and I assume it's just an amount of retard vs % slip.

So if yours is not doing it through timing or throttle how does it work? What happens?

Say I'm on wet/greasy surface and at a stop, I then slam throttle 100% to the floor like an armature. How does yours work to prevent slip? It has to cut power some way right? I mean if I was twin turbod 480+ torque I obviously couldn't allow all 480 down and hold it on that surface instantly or all you would have is spin right?

Sorry I'm just confused

VitViper · 09-17-2016, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jhill

Lol ok so in still confused. If at any time you get frustrated explaining yourself just say and I'll stop but in really interested in how this works. So my ecutek tune is adjustable through cruise like yours and I assume it's just an amount of retard vs % slip.

So if yours is not doing it through timing or throttle how does it work? What happens?

Say I'm on wet/greasy surface and at a stop, I then slam throttle 100% to the floor like an armature. How does yours work to prevent slip? It has to cut power some way right? I mean if I was twin turbod 480+ torque I obviously couldn't allow all 480 down and hold it on that surface instantly or all you would have is spin right?

Sorry I'm just confused

Just settle on the fact your ECUTek map can't and won't do what the MoTeC ecu is doing. In fact I have yet to see any OEM ECU do this as they just implement VDC and the goal is just to keep you from dying and not optimizing acceleration.

Timing retard does not work. Throttle closure does not work.

We target a set driven wheel speed based on non driven speed and hold it there. The driven wheel speed must ALWAYS be a certain amount faster than non driven to have "acceleration" (otherwise you're standing still lol). When you have too much is what "overslip" or "wheel spin" -- the tire couldn't hold traction and RPM takes off and you spin. This won't ever happen with a proper M1 setup. It'll just hold. The how and why is beyond the scope of this thread, lol.

Best I can do is show you -- this is of our 910whp FWD cars (about 750 in the video). Video has a tach & vehicle speed playback part way in, you can see the RPM never breaks out into wheel spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N2IqmAYkxw

Jhill · 09-17-2016, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitViper

Just settle on the fact your ECUTek map can't and won't do what the MoTeC ecu is doing. In fact I have yet to see any OEM ECU do this as they just implement VDC and the goal is just to keep you from dying and not optimizing acceleration.

Timing retard does not work. Throttle closure does not work.

We target a set driven wheel speed based on non driven speed and hold it there. The driven wheel speed must ALWAYS be a certain amount faster than non driven to have "acceleration" (otherwise you're standing still lol). When you have too much is what "overslip" or "wheel spin" -- the tire couldn't hold traction and RPM takes off and you spin. This won't ever happen with a proper M1 setup. It'll just hold. The how and why is beyond the scope of this thread, lol.

Best I can do is show you -- this is of our 910whp FWD cars (about 750 in the video). Video has a tach & vehicle speed playback part way in, you can see the RPM never breaks out into wheel spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N2IqmAYkxw

Ok I think the video helps. Looks like it's doing it through a fuel cut so the rpm stays down.

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09-15-2016, 11:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,724 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295379	So i plan to stay N/A, Hopefully in the near future I"ll be able to afford a dry sump and B.R. billet crank to build the bottom end to rev safely rev to 9k. Similar to OnPoint DYno's 350z, do you think ecu tek would be more than plenty or could this kit greatly improve tuning capabilities over ecu tek.