Titan supercharger
 

I spoke to a guy last night who owned a Titan truck and added a supercharger. He told me the same day he installed the supercharger the transmission started to act up and completly went out the next day. He said he took it to a transmission shop and they rebuilt it only to have it go out almost imediatly. He explained to me he rebuilt his transmission twice before removing the supercharger then rebuilt the (automatic) transmission one last time before selling the truck. I explained to him i wanted to supercharge my 370z and he all but begged me not to. I have the standard transmission on my 370 with the sync rev. Does anyone think supercharging the 370 will cause drivetrain problems?:confused:

Adding more power always has the potential to cause these problems.

Did this discussion take place at a bar?

there have been numerous TT installs on AT G37's... all of which didnt have any problems...

it's highly suggested to invest in an transmission oil cooler for AT's
just like a clutch/fly wheel is suggested for a MT setup.

There are plenty of Gs and some Zs that are running TT setups that would be producing equal or higher RWHP numbers and few reported problems with the trannys. The MT will be more robust than the AT and will be able to handle more power. Your reliability will go down when you choose to boost but it will also vary with amount of power you choose to go with. If you are doing 600-800 RWHP then yeah you will most likely want to beef up the tranny as well as the rear end but if you are gonna SC and will be content with the 400-450 RWHP range then I really wouldn't worry.

Remember anytime u add power u exceed the limits of the oem parts. A side note to remember is torque ratings because that is how transmissions are measured... By torque not hp as most refer to. There are several g37 both manual and auto running 400 ftlbs or closeto it with our trannys. Manuals will need a tougher clutch and the autos may need to be upgraded as well when u reach around 400ftlbs. I hate autos due to the innefficiency of torque converters delivering smooth power to the ground and that was most likely the culprit that caused the trucks tranny failures... Just my 2 cents

Dont all conversations take place at bars? At least all that are 100% true? Ya Bullit that sounds pretty acurate because i do remeber the guys bragging on how the truck could "catch a second" as in the tires spun while the auto tranny shifted itself. After he mentioned that i kinda thought to myself that had to be some pretty hardcore wear and tear for an automatic to spinout like that. The guy did seem to know pretty much what he was talking about but then again he could just be "that guy" aka expert on everything. I am not sure what his titan was rated for as in, towing package and whatnot for beefier drivetrain bc he didnt mention anything but the truck's 1/4 time which was 13.37. I know the 370 was lightened and i assume Nissan may eventually release the car with a stock TT or SC. I just hope the drivetrain on the 370z can handle more of a HP gain % then this guys Titan could. All in all i want a car that is fast and reliable not a 10 second 1/4 mile car that always has to be tinkered with.

nissan will not release a stock TT or SC as oem.... really doubt it

GTR..... There is the TT... The Z will not have TT from the factory...

A blown V8 will have more torque than a blown V6 would at comparable manifold pressure. It all comes down to how often you beat on it. For the AT, trans cooler and shift kit are a must. The next step up is clutch packs.

This is just me, and I know I'm on the wrong part of the forum to say it, but I think the S/C is just going to cause issues in the long term. On the track, it means you need a full BBK, the transmission may have issues, the differential will definitely need a swap or a serious cooler, and engine cooling may be an issue again. That means the S/C really costs $10K+ if you want to use it (traffic light drags are obviously another issue)

I'm going to spend some of that money on track time. As they said at my last track day, if you invest the money in the car, the car goes faster, but when you sell it, you're the same speed. If you invest the money in driving, you will always be faster. I will make an exception for Travis, who already seems to be a pretty hot shoe, and who needs to get out there and spank some 'vettes with his Z...

Anyway, just my $0.02. I think this car with the intake and exhaust is already reasonably fast in the right hands. If I do drop more coin, it will be on a Caterham :)

All these issues which you mention need to be addressed before even a stock Z rolls onto a track.

This will decimate all after you put about $15,000 in it. Or more, if we have to overnight parts from Japan.

We'll put it on my tab at Harry's.

:roflpuke2:

If you want to put a S/C on your Z, do it right. Watch your coolant levels, and head bolts/head gasket. Get a good cooler system, and put billet input and output shafts in your Automatic trans. If your a manual get a good double or triple disc clutch. Spinning faster you might need stronger push rods, better Cams, tighten up the blocks and balance it all out. Its a long process not just, Hey lets throw a SC on the car/truck and watch me run 10s... etc.

:tup:

we're not even taking into account that his buddy may not have a working supercharger set up on his truck? It's more than just power that breaks things it's people incorrectly modifying, rebuilding, working on things as well. Not applicable to this case but forced induction on an 70's era ford automatic c4 with vacuum kickdown will blow it up or at least make it not run right because the transmission decides engine load based manifold pressure and the c4 was never designed to see boost and lowered pressures around town so it would try to stay in low gear, shift funny, and just fail. With automatics you have to consider the engine and the transmission at the same time when modifying as a change on one without thinking about the other will hurt performance or break something. Look at what a valve body mod on a 350z does for it huge gains just by working with the brain of the transmission(well more like the circulatory or nervous system). If you have a manual you're straight because it's just a bunch of shafts, some gears, and a few levers hooked up to your hand and it doesn't give a fart about what you do to the engine (well unless you take the sensor ring off the flywheel for the synchro rev).

You do understand that /facepalm was toward your comment :shakes head:

You have never tracked your car therefore you have no room to talk. You do not know what it can handle at its limits in both the wet and dry... I have done both and I have spun the car off the track pushing the car to and beyond its limits in stock form. The Car will do just fine on the track in stock trim with only a few additions such as a oil cooler for the hotter climates and shorter tracks and brake fluid upgrade to dot 4 hi temp and finally steel braided brake lines for safety. The problems people have had with the calipers have been from running racing pads. These types of additions are recommended for any sports car that goes on the track. To say the 370z needs alot of work before it enters the track only goes to show your ignorance!:owned:

Also people like Semtex, RCZ, Mike, others and Myself push this car harder than you would ever get the chance to on the track... so the failures we see are from HARD use and I mean HARD! at Little Tally I dont brake until the #2 cone and I am full throttle to that point... I scare the ever loving $hit out of my passengers because I push the car so dam hard! My saying at the track when people ask me where are your braking points... I look at them and reply braking points? I dont brake until I see God!

Good day to you and please stop with all the FAIL you bring to threads! :tiphat:

:icon18:

LOL...where do you go about referencing my track experience/abilities? You do realize that I hold a NASA Competition License and instruct Group 1/2...right? :tiphat:

I have yet to have the Z on the track because frankly, it's my street-car. It's evident from members here with experience that the brakes are certainly a weak-point for the car (as is the case with most production sports-cars), so those need to addressed, along with oil-cooling and diff-cooling and/or the replacement of the factory LSD, for starters. Lately, fuel-starvation has been of concern, another issue one must take into consideration.

To copy/paste one of your own sentences...These types of additions are recommended for any sports car that goes on the track. Even Porsches, Corvettes, and Elises need tweaking in certain areas before they are pushed hard on a track...so I'm in no way talking down on the Z. The 370Z doesn't need a lot of work, so I don't even know what you are disagreeing with me on.

Adding some form of forced-induction and then tracking the car will open a whole new can of worms and perhaps shine a light on weak-points no one knew existed. Still, in my years of experience, I've seen what pushing such a car hard on a track that came from the factory NA will do, and you're in for nothing but a headache. Production-cars weren't designed to be pushed on a track in the first place, so to add forced-induction onto an engine that was also not designed with it in mind just compounds failure. Take a look under the hood of any track-prepped S2000, Corvette, 350Z, or any NA sports-car. You're not going to find a turbo/supercharger. Perhaps the only exception I can think of a supercharged Miata.

So tell me again...are you arguing with me just for the sake of it?

JoeD- With respect to your experience on the race track I would also like to suggest that perhaps one of the reasons you don't see FI systems, big brake kits, and other performance items on cars in NASA and SCCA and other series is because the rules for most classes (except unlimited) do not allow such modifications.

However, if you look at numerous Time Attack cars they are almost definitely running some form of forced induction and generally have no issues. However, a well prepared Time Attack car has also been thoroughly gone through and prepared for such events.

When engineered, installed, and operated properly aftermarket forced induction systems can be very reliable.

Engineering- This is a no brainer really, if it's not engineered well you will have issues. We have all seen half-assed engineering and terrible designs. Generally they are easy to see and easy to avoid. Sometimes though surprises can happen and this is when you must rely on a company who you believe or proves to you is doing all of the necessary endurance testing before releasing a part.

Installation- Installation is key in anything but becomes especially important when installing aftermarket forced induction systems. One split hose here, one poor seal there, one mistake during the tuning process and who knows what can happen. That is why a lot of companies are doing their best to make the installation process as simple as possible.

Operation- At the end of the day the owner/operator needs to keep in mind what modification they have made to their car. What fuel do you put in the car? What oil do you put in the car? How frequently do you service the vehicle? What do you honestly expect out of the car? Do you expect to be able to put 10K into your car and achieve 600 horsepower on a stock motor? Just sell your car now and go buy something else because it won't happen!

It is true and I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that Nissan, nor any other major manufacturer, plans for their cars to see forced induction if it does not come equipped with it from the factory. Rightfully so too, if they sell 100,000 Z's only 2-3% of them actually see some form of forced induction. So why should they build hot motors for only 2-3,000 cars? They wouldn't do it. That would raise the cost of the car for no good reason.

However, the Nissan motors are more than capable of handling boost on and off the track when the kit is properly engineered and installed. I assure you, Steve Millen and I will be putting our car to the test on the race track and we will not be going overboard on the car at first. We will be testing at numerous race tracks in a relatively stock trim and eventually (probably around 2011) we plan on racing the car in the Time Attack series.

Agreed. But I was also referencing cars on the track in a non-competitive environment, i.e. Group 3 and 4 HPDE drivers who are pushing their cars to 9/10.

Again, I can't disagree, but as you said..."a well prepared Time Attack car has also been thoroughly gone through and prepared." In no way am I saying that it's not feasable to run a car with such a setup, but the tab when it's all said and done is going to be substantial. Those cars are certainly built for an intended purpose, and it's not cheap.

Plus, it's nice to be backed by a shop, like many of the Time Attack cars are. :)

I know a little bit about the Supercharged Titans in general. Stillen made a good kit but it has some tuning issues and will not change the kit to fix the "known and well documented" tuning issues it has. I'm not bashing Stillen by any means, but their supercharger for the Titan needs to be offered as a hardware only kit and let the end user decide on how to control fuel and timing.

2 things automatic Nissan/Infiniti vehicles care about.
#1 Obviously being power/torque.
#2 is a little thing called Calculated load. The ECU determines what the calcualted load is and sends that info to the TCM which in then tells the transmission what to do. If the TCM sees 35% load it's gonna shift nice and soft but once it sees 100% load it will make the line pressure adjustments and move the shift points around to accomodate the increased load on the engine.

Lets go back to #1 - Power/Torque The Titan uses a slightly beefier version of the RE5R05A automatic transmission which is the same trans used in the M45/35 G35 350Z Fronteir Xterra Q45. Its a workhorse transmission. The titan, if anyone knows, has a boatload of torque - stock it puts out 385tq. I've seen modded Titans putting down over 450rwtq numbers without the supercharger. With the supercharger the torque literally goes through the roof and the biggest gain is in the lower revs.

Now lets combine #1 and #2 and you can see that now if the ECU sees less than 100% load but in reality the truck is making 200% more torque then failure becomes an obvious reaction to the Stillen supercharger.

In all fairness to Stillen - Their kit just needs to be switched from a piggyback ignition controller and extra injectors to a system that can program the ECU like UpRev or COBB and be calibrated for larger injectors. Also it should be mandatory that at a minimum a transmission VB upgrade be included or strongly recomended.

How does that apply to the 370Z - well if you are a 6MT then mod away - change the clutch to a beefier one that has the torque rating slightly exceeding what you will be outputting and also change the transmission fluid to a nice synthetic (redline, RP, Amsoil, etc...) to help with the extra load. Also heat is what kills to add and engine cooler/diff cooler/transmission cooler even for the 6MT peeps. One thing we cannot get away from is rated torque capacity of the transmission itself. Nissan has notoriously installed beefy components in that regaurds at least for the MT cars in the past so not even looking into it I would assume the 370Z trans to be about the same if not better.

If you are a 7sp Auto - then you will be breaking new ground. Expect failures of the transmission. My recomendation is to look at the guys running Nitrous(if there are any) and see what they are facing. Maybe even buy a Nitrous kit first and do some data logs and see what's happening before you take a $5-6,000 plunge for FI.

Any street car can be made to track - and if you got the 370Z specifically for racing then Awesome - if not - then awesome too. We're all Z car guys/gals and we enjoy what the car can offer. I can honestly say that there is a car out there that is better suited for track duty than a 370Z and there is also another car out there that is better suited for daily driving. But that's not why we have them, it's because we think they are awesome, beautiful, masterful, sleek, enjoyable, fast, comfortable, hot, sexy, cool, hip, nostalgic, new, high tech, etc, etc, etc.....

Lets have fun with the 370Z - cause I won't have one for a while and I'm envious of you - but I can say that I have the 4 door version of the 370Z (M45) and it's just as great in my mind. can I get a Hell Yeah? HELL YEAH!

Kyle very true! and thank you for your added points to the subject. I have seen supercharged and turbocharged s2000's on the track and i must say they are scary fast!!! Non of the cars had any problems period. The supercharged s2000 only had a clutch and flywheel installed along with coilovers and 18" wheels with race compounds. The car is owned by a local honda shop owner and at 9.5psi he is putting down 400hp!!! he kept his high compression gaskets and the car runs flawlessly. JoeD to quote your agreement with another persons post
" 'This is just me, and I know I'm on the wrong part of the forum to say it, but I think the S/C is just going to cause issues in the long term. On the track, it means you need a full BBK, the transmission may have issues, the differential will definitely need a swap or a serious cooler, and engine cooling may be an issue again. That means the S/C really costs $10K+ if you want to use it (traffic light drags are obviously another issue)'
All these issues which you mention need to be addressed before even a stock Z rolls onto a track."

So your telling me I need BBK, my tranny is going to have issues, I need to swap my diff and add a cooler among other things before my stock Z rolls onto the track?!?! cause that is word for word what you said and agreed to and that my friend is what i am arguing.

As a word of advice take the time to read your post before posting it. You have not taken that time on any of your posts in this forum and it is quite obvious because you are always having to defend yourself. I can understand many of these upgrade for going F/I but that is obvious on any NA car going FI... once you strap that extra power you are pushing the components passed their rated performance levels.

Again, I STRESS to you to READ your POSTS before POSTING! You already have a reputation on this board for ignorance and trolling and that is not my opinion that is a commonly shared belief by the majority of members here soooo if you want to save face and not get hostile responses. READ your POST before POSTING.

Thank you and good day :tiphat:

Well...yes. I don't see the argument here. We already know the factory Akebono Sport-package brakes are not up to the task. The transmission itself is just fine, but issues with the factory LSD over-heating and not functioning properly have also been reported.

Again, I have no clue what you are bickering about. Perhaps I can quote Stillen from a recent post to provide you with some more insight on the car's brakes...

:tiphat:

I think the most important thing to do before purchasing a supercharger or turbo kit for your vehicle (this applies to any car not just the Z) is to have a clear understanding of what you expect out of the kit you are interested in and what you plan on doing with your car. If you want crazy high horsepower and money is of no concern and you do not care about emissions legality or reliability. I would recommend turbo's. Turbo-chargers will supply you with the most horsepower possible and they sound cool, look cool, and work well.

Pros of a turbo system:

1) High horsepower capabilities
2) Very cool associated sounds
3) Looks great
4) Re-uses exhaust gases to produce additional power, which means no parasidic loss.

Cons of a turbo system:

1) Turbo's run extremely hot and n/a cars use hoses and seals (rubber components) that are not designed to withstand those high temperatures for long periods of time.
2) Requires a little bit more maintenance than a supercharger kit only because there is more heat involved
3) Turbo lag at low RPM
4) If turbo is not properly sized the powerband is like a light switch...stock, stock, stock, stock, holy-**** I'm backwards!
5) It is nearly impossible to get emissions legality with an aftermarket turbo system
6) A lot of the aftermarket turbo kits that I have seen, remove the crash beam and replace it with an intercooler. This crash beam in the front of the car houses the airbag sensors.
7) Turbo kits generally require a more lengthy installation due to the large diameter piping that needs to be run through the vehicle for the intakes and intercoolers and what not.

Pro's of a supercharger:

1) Lower underhood temperatures
2) dramatically decreased boost lag (sometimes none depending on type of supercharger and sizing and vehicle application)
3) Possibility of achieving emissions legality
4) Beautiful supercharger whine (I love it, some people dont' like it...personal preference.)
5) Generally easier to install than a turbo system because there is less plumbing required. Also, most turbo kits require hours of tuning and most supercharger systems do not

Cons of a supercharger:

1) Not as much power potential
2) Parasidic loss because the engine does have to power it
3) Possible hood clearance (again depending on vehicle and supercharger used)

Obviously we are fans of superchargers even though we do a lot of work on turbo vehicle's. These are some of the reasons that we prefer to go with supercharger systems for our production kits. They meet or exceed all of our requirements and for the average person they are the perfect solution.

I would love to hear more thoughts on the pro's and con's that I listed though!

Like I said earlier I have pushed the car and so have others and the front calipers are fine when you are not using overly aggressive or out of balanced race compound pads! all of those things have been stated in the other threads as well. Factory LSD over heating nope I havent seen that one nor experienced it. Mine worked and still works just fine.

JoeD have you ever heard of Marketing? who is pushing those products? hmmm would it be stillen? *nothing against stillen the company or Steve Millen* but that is a form of marketing this is better than stock and if you want better performance you need to buy this or that... Have the Sport calipers failed using regular pads or not overly aggressive or out of balanced pads?.... the answer is no! Again I have yet to see any true problems with the rear diff! could a cooler help yea it could but what sports car couldnt use a rear diff cooler?

My point is: is that you often talk out your butt without thinking! and the fact that you agreed and implied that major changes need to be made before a stock car even rolls out on the track! thats my point and its not bickering its called pointing out your fallacies... Could those mods help yes and i am not arguing that. what my argument is is that they arent a necessity to track your car at what ever level. If you want to be more competitive yes changes will have to be made but it is not a requirement due to badly designed parts proned to fairly like you so easily allude to.

Great post kyle! I am one of those turbo heads :happydance: I love superchargers but with the newer technologies I feel the turbos have really stepped up to the plate in regard to price/performance.

I agree with many of your cons on the turbo systems however I find that heat problems can many times be negated with HPC coatings vented hoods and other means. Also, Reliability is all in the tune and anyone familiar with FI knows thats the key! so we cant go around saying turbo systems are unreliable... *tisk tisk tisk* :tup: You can have two equal cars on with the same driver and different tunes and one will blow up while the other is perfectly fine same for a supercharger. As far as the airbag sensors cant they also be relocated to retain their functionality? Turbo lag is now non existent with full boost hitting in most cars and kits at below 3500 rpm where as a SC will hit full boost at peak rpm.

In racing we all know it is about the power under the curve! Turbos win in that league :D but dont get me wrong SC are making the way with new technology and I will be excited to see them put down big numbers like Turbo systems! SHOOT I WELCOME IT!:happydance:

Thanks for adding another meaningful post kyle!:tiphat:

You are correct bullitt and please allow me to elaborate...

When I say that turbo kits aren't as reliable I am not referring to the engine reliability or tune. I am referring to the issues that arise due to the heat such as cracked turbo's due to rapid changes in temperature (basically stopping after a hard run) and oil leaks and stuff like that. Those are all user generated reliability issues most of the time though.

The reliability of the engine is 100% up to the tune(r.)

Exactly. Engine-reliability is completely dependent on the tune and how far you chose to push the envelope, but reliability in this context has nothing to do with weather or not you're going to blow your engine. Where a supercharger has a turbo-kit beat hands down is overall worry-free operation, and this has almost nothing to do with power-level.

Actually, it's only the centrifugal-style superchargers which are designed to make full boost (or close to) near redline. Positive-displacement superchargers are there very soon after WOT, regardless of engine-RPM.

However, you can't compare turbo-lag to a centrifugal supercharger's "lag" citing it only makes full-boost at or close to redline. Technically, lag is the wrong word in this context which is why I put it in quotes, as boost-response is almost instant (obviously...because it's driven off a belt). Regardless of boost-level, you still have positive manifold-pressure from the second you tip into the throttle, even with a centrifugal SC. This is certainly not the case with turbo(s).

Superchargers have a much higer failure rate than turbochargers due to the inherent design of adding more moving parts - ie belts, pullies, brackets, idlers, tentioners. Also the supercharger itself has it's own self enclosed bearings and gears that introduce new failure points as well. Failure of the supercharger "normally" doesn't meant the engine goes boom.

Turbochargers have 1 added moving part - the turbine and compressor blades that share a common shaft - technically if you have the ceramic ball bearing option you can include that but it has been proven to be nearly bulletproof even when you include oil starvation. If you include the Wastegate and blowoff valve then techically that is 4 moving parts added to the engine. "Normally" a failure with the turbocharger makes the engine go boom.

Technically Kyle - superchargers are more prone to failure unless they are engineered correctly and installed with prowess. Mercedes and Ford have it down pat. Jackson Racing did well with the honda stuff but there were induced failures that did occure due to engineering mistakes. ATI - I've seen bracket problems, same with Vortech, do you need a cogged belt or will a serpentine do just fine type of problems with superchargers. I have even seen bearing failures on pto shafts for your superchager on the titan - which is not the engineer's fault, but it does happen.

Most Failures with a turbo are blown boots on the intake piping which causes relatively no harm. If it is tune related or wastegate failure - then you have a blown up engine. Rare failures are compressor blade breaking being ingested by the engine.

Most failures with a supercharger are belt noise, belt breaks, broken pullies, bearing noise, rare occasion is FOD (foreign object damage) to the pistons and valves, Leaking air to water intercooler causing excessive smoke and or hydrolock on startup.

I think Kyles post refering to reliability is to the point that superchargers "normally" don't blow an engine when they fail and that turbochargers do. You can't get boost greed on a supercharger like you can on a turbo. It is very easy to pop an engine on a turbo car UNLESS you are very responsible with that boost controller - lol

The great question is "where"?

I mean, if you wanted to do said upgrade, who's a supplier?

KYLE, whenever you get ready for test and evaluations of your Super Charger Kit, please feel free to send one to my home address.

Thanks in advance!

D.


:tup:

It's whether, not weather. :tiphat:

Thats all i have to say. :happydance:

Cool. :tup:

BTW...it's that's, not thats. :tiphat:

DAMN!

Touché :tiphat:

Transgo makes a shift kit and so does Stillen. I have the Transgo shift kit installed in my car and my valve body was modified by GTM.