400 whp on N/A VQ possible?

FL 4Motion · 05-18-2014, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

Back in the '60s, when fuel economy wasn't a big deal, car manufacturers were pretty sloppy and one could take a stock engine, slap a bigger carb and manifolds on it, maybe a hotter cam, and you could expect some pretty large gains. Add a basic balance/blue-print/port/polish job (not exactly a bolt-on but you don't have to buy a lot of expensive parts, either) and it was not unheard of to boost HP by 25% or more.

The days of getting big gains with bolt-ons and cheap mods are gone. The manufacturers have already picked the low-hanging fruit.

As others have said: if you want big gains, expect to spend big money.

I miss my chevelle.

Optimiser · 05-18-2014, 07:11 AM

Yes U can, with Nitrous Oxide...

Elmo370z · 05-18-2014, 10:04 AM

lmao falcon. China problem has a bill to cure the herpes.

FL 4Motion · 05-18-2014, 04:56 PM

Wonder if these guys might be able to help develop an IM etc. they have lots off stuff for the honda guys as well as domestics.

Kinsler.com.

Elmo370z · 05-19-2014, 07:58 PM

@Jcosta. I seriously don't think you need 30K to build a 400whp Na Z. Tsm is making good progress with the NA build and maybe they will be the first to do it. Tsm made 340 to the wheels on 93 octane. and 350 with e85. So your telling me there is no way they can pull an extra 50-60 whp horsepower with spending some crazy amount of cash? still no one knows, maybe the best Japanese tuners what the full potential of the VQ.

Elmo370z · 05-19-2014, 08:41 PM

With all the drama with TSM dyno posting I retract my previous statement.

Jordo! · 05-20-2014, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo370z

With all the drama with TSM dyno posting I retract my previous statement.

E85, a somewhat generous correction factor... it's definitely making some serious power relative to any other N/A builds that I am aware of, but hitting 400 even with cold weather and a generous CF, ehhh... I wouldn't hold your breath.

On that note, has anyone put higher CR pistons in one of these blocks and run 100+ AKI? Dry sump or stouter oil pump to handle higher revs?

That would make for a high-strung engine, but it would put down some decent power before it kerploded

BGTV8 · 05-20-2014, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

E85, a somewhat generous correction factor... it's definitely making some serious power relative to any other N/A builds that I am aware of, but hitting 400 even with cold weather and a generous CF, ehhh... I wouldn't hold your breath.

On that note, has anyone put higher CR pistons in one of these blocks and run 100+ AKI? Dry sump or stouter oil pump to handle higher revs?

That would make for a high-strung engine, but it would put down some decent power before it kerploded

JWT engines used in the CTSCC should go close

1slow370 · 05-20-2014, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

E85, a somewhat generous correction factor... it's definitely making some serious power relative to any other N/A builds that I am aware of, but hitting 400 even with cold weather and a generous CF, ehhh... I wouldn't hold your breath.

On that note, has anyone put higher CR pistons in one of these blocks and run 100+ AKI? Dry sump or stouter oil pump to handle higher revs?

That would make for a high-strung engine, but it would put down some decent power before it kerploded

There is canuck shop with a high comp full na hr head 3.7 block that is over 400 using jwt c13's? full headers and itb's

Edit:its the same guy megan370 talks about, I just forget the name of the shop

BGTV8 · 05-20-2014, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1slow370

There is canuck shop with a high comp full na hr head 3.7 block that is over 400 using jwt c13's? full headers and itb's

Edit:its the same guy megan370 talks about, I just forget the name of the shop

Sasha Anis

350z : OnPoint Dyno

More Engine Development – 414whp with Kels *Video* : OnPoint Dyno

This is what is required to get 414rwHP .... anyone who thinks they will get 400 with bog-stock VQ37VHR engine is relying upon an over optimistic dyno to give them the number IMHO.

mattimus · 05-20-2014, 01:26 PM

hahahahahahaha

Elmo370z · 05-21-2014, 12:25 AM

I Saw that video. That Z is badass. Until more research on tuning the VVel, you can't say people are over optimistic, it is those who think outside the box that come up with the some of greatest ideas. I just want to know how far can the vvel motor can be pushed before BOOM! I think it is close to 400whp. Sure you can go through the hassle and put HR heads, an aggressive cam, itb's and spend countless hours in unchartered territory and make 400whp not knocking Kels video I'd take that Z any day. Bone stock Z all the bolt ons,Porting intakes, up-grade fuel and oil systems, Exhaust cam, and a engine management. Spend countless weeks or months trying every possible tune you can think of and input of other tuners around. I'm pretty sure the new VQ motor can reach or come close to making that magicial mark. 20 years ago people laughed at 4cyl cars at the track, and let alone that motor ever! being capable of running low 6's in the 1320. It just takes time my friend.

Chuck33079 · 05-21-2014, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo370z

I Saw that video. That Z is badass. Until more research on tuning the VVel, you can't say people are over optimistic, it is those who think outside the box that come up with the some of greatest ideas. I just want to know how far can the vvel motor can be pushed before BOOM! I think it is close to 400whp. Sure you can go through the hassle and put HR heads, an aggressive cam, itb's and spend countless hours in unchartered territory and make 400whp not knocking Kels video I'd take that Z any day. Bone stock Z all the bolt ons,Porting intakes, up-grade fuel and oil systems, Exhaust cam, and a engine management. Spend countless weeks or months trying every possible tune you can think of and input of other tuners around. I'm pretty sure the new VQ motor can reach or come close to making that magicial mark. 20 years ago people laughed at 4cyl cars at the track, and let alone that motor ever! being capable of running low 6's in the 1320. It just takes time my friend.

Dude, there is no way in hell you will ever see 400whp out of a stock motor on pump gas. Period. Not happening. Ever. VVEL isn't magic. People are tuning it right now. Either explain what information (not opinions) you have that leads you to believe that the motor can produce ~450chp or start planning a build that can actually happen.

Look at it this way- you're not the first person to have this idea. No one has succeeded. Either throw 15k+ at a motor build to maybe get 400whp or do something proven to work and go FI.

BGTV8 · 05-21-2014, 12:59 AM

Another internet optimist ..........

Power is torque times revs .... the NA VQ can make serious power at high revs, but the OEM bottome end fasterners will not cut the mustard with big revs (eg: >7500) nor will the OEM oil pump.

So, to get more power at 7500 Vmax engine speed you need more lift and greater duration. VVEL might give you 12mm - 13mm at best and that implies you tighten the piston to valve clearances beyond safety.

If this is purely a theortical exercise and engine logevity is simpy not a consideration, the get your tuner to plug max lift into the VVEL, ognore safety margins and rev the engine to 9000 rpm

You;ll get ~400whp. The engine will die shrtly thereafter as a consequence of:
1. Damage from oil-pump failure
2. Damage from piston to valve interference clearance issues becuase the OEM valve springs cannot sustain the rev or because exceeding the VVEL max lift eliminated valve clearance
3. Rod bolts let go

So yes, in theory, you might get 400wHp for long enough to register on the (Optimistic) dyno - but you;ll kill the engine.

Any other option calls for the engine to be opened up and the relevant parts replaced to help the engine live at the rpm required to let it live for more than a few second (or minutes) ....

It's not that I am not a believer, but that I am realist - I have funded the build of dozens of race engines and funded the research that delivers reliable race horsepower, so my comments are based on hard-earned knowledge.

You need good airflow and compression (or boost) to make good torque and you need rev's to make horsepower. The limits in the OEM VQ preclude 450-470 Hp at the crank which is what you need to 400rwHp.

If you still believe in the tooth fairy or a magic pudding - be my guest, but I'm done here.

Elmo370z · 05-21-2014, 12:01 PM

@ BGTV8 thanks for the insight. That was the information I was looking for, not everyone telling throw 15K and do F.I. and you can never achieve that power etc..... Thank you. @ Chuck33079 guess I'll just have to throw that money into the motor, I just love the sound of an all motor engine making decent power.

05-18-2014, 07:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
Optimiser Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Australia Posts: 456 Drives: 2012 Nissan 370Z MT Rep Power: 20145	Yes U can, with Nitrous Oxide... gbrettin and megalapagas like this.

05-18-2014, 04:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
FL 4Motion A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: FL Posts: 4,776 Drives: Baby Shark Rep Power: 701616	Kinsler Wonder if these guys might be able to help develop an IM etc. they have lots off stuff for the honda guys as well as domestics. Kinsler.com.

05-21-2014, 12:25 AM	#12 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,724 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	I Saw that video. That Z is badass. Until more research on tuning the VVel, you can't say people are over optimistic, it is those who think outside the box that come up with the some of greatest ideas. I just want to know how far can the vvel motor can be pushed before BOOM! I think it is close to 400whp. Sure you can go through the hassle and put HR heads, an aggressive cam, itb's and spend countless hours in unchartered territory and make 400whp not knocking Kels video I'd take that Z any day. Bone stock Z all the bolt ons,Porting intakes, up-grade fuel and oil systems, Exhaust cam, and a engine management. Spend countless weeks or months trying every possible tune you can think of and input of other tuners around. I'm pretty sure the new VQ motor can reach or come close to making that magicial mark. 20 years ago people laughed at 4cyl cars at the track, and let alone that motor ever! being capable of running low 6's in the 1320. It just takes time my friend. Smashley likes this.

05-21-2014, 12:59 AM	#14 (permalink)
BGTV8 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: 03350 Australia Posts: 1,515 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z M6 Rep Power: 39974	Another internet optimist .......... Power is torque times revs .... the NA VQ can make serious power at high revs, but the OEM bottome end fasterners will not cut the mustard with big revs (eg: >7500) nor will the OEM oil pump. So, to get more power at 7500 Vmax engine speed you need more lift and greater duration. VVEL might give you 12mm - 13mm at best and that implies you tighten the piston to valve clearances beyond safety. If this is purely a theortical exercise and engine logevity is simpy not a consideration, the get your tuner to plug max lift into the VVEL, ognore safety margins and rev the engine to 9000 rpm You;ll get ~400whp. The engine will die shrtly thereafter as a consequence of: 1. Damage from oil-pump failure 2. Damage from piston to valve interference clearance issues becuase the OEM valve springs cannot sustain the rev or because exceeding the VVEL max lift eliminated valve clearance 3. Rod bolts let go So yes, in theory, you might get 400wHp for long enough to register on the (Optimistic) dyno - but you;ll kill the engine. Any other option calls for the engine to be opened up and the relevant parts replaced to help the engine live at the rpm required to let it live for more than a few second (or minutes) .... It's not that I am not a believer, but that I am realist - I have funded the build of dozens of race engines and funded the research that delivers reliable race horsepower, so my comments are based on hard-earned knowledge. You need good airflow and compression (or boost) to make good torque and you need rev's to make horsepower. The limits in the OEM VQ preclude 450-470 Hp at the crank which is what you need to 400rwHp. If you still believe in the tooth fairy or a magic pudding - be my guest, but I'm done here. Jordo!, SouthArk370Z, Maduro and 3 others like this.

05-18-2014, 10:04 AM	#3 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,724 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	lmao falcon. China problem has a bill to cure the herpes.

05-19-2014, 07:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,724 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	@Jcosta. I seriously don't think you need 30K to build a 400whp Na Z. Tsm is making good progress with the NA build and maybe they will be the first to do it. Tsm made 340 to the wheels on 93 octane. and 350 with e85. So your telling me there is no way they can pull an extra 50-60 whp horsepower with spending some crazy amount of cash? still no one knows, maybe the best Japanese tuners what the full potential of the VQ.

05-19-2014, 08:41 PM	#6 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,724 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	With all the drama with TSM dyno posting I retract my previous statement.

05-20-2014, 01:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
mattimus Base Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Austin, TX Age: 39 Posts: 45 Drives: 2013 370Z MBM M6 Rep Power: 13	hahahahahahaha

05-21-2014, 12:01 PM	#15 (permalink)
Elmo370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: st. petersburg Posts: 5,724 Drives: 09 nissan 370z Sp M6 Rep Power: 295378	@ BGTV8 thanks for the insight. That was the information I was looking for, not everyone telling throw 15K and do F.I. and you can never achieve that power etc..... Thank you. @ Chuck33079 guess I'll just have to throw that money into the motor, I just love the sound of an all motor engine making decent power.