GTM Motorsports Oil Cooler

Modshack · 09-11-2009, 10:18 AM

[QUOTE=Denny McLain;194077]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyGT

thermostatic adapter really is a must (i think) and it does such a great job at keeping temps down.

QUOTE]

Thinking you might be right of the thermostat adapter. Even though this is Dallas TX, we on occasion can get a bit of cold weather (in the teens on rare occasions) and I'll probably pick one up. In the meantime, I'm paying close attention to see how it works and if I really do need one.

The GTM description says it has a thermostatic plate...The only kit on the market that seems to....You should be covered!

Denny McLain · 09-11-2009, 04:14 PM

[QUOTE=Modshack;194101]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

The GTM description says it has a thermostatic plate...The only kit on the market that seems to....You should be covered!

I didn't notice that. Thanks! Makes the kit even more attractive. Maybe it's me, but it really does appear to warm up slower. That's why I was thinking it didn't have one.

Now we need something to keep the water temps in check.

JB1 · 09-11-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

One good deed deserves another.

The truth is it was easier than I expected. The hard part far and away was figuring out cooler placement and how to route the lines. Everything else is a piece of cake and Nissan even kindly has predrilled holes to mount the cooler. Once you finally figure out how to use them that is. Must have spent at least an hour just playing with placements.

Seems everyone is routing through the passenger's side which makes sense as the oil filter on located on that side. After viewing the pictures and doing a few mock trials, I just couldn't quite figure out how to make it work. Being I never could follow directions, tried reversing the hoses and oil radiator placement. This worked best for me.

#1 There are already predrilled holes. Just added a couple of the body bolt tabs.

#2 Drilled an hole on the opposite side to route the hoses. Just wasn't happy having to drill a bunch of large holes in the car and this is the only one you need.

#3 Oil lines going the opposite direction with plenty of clearance.

#4 Oil radiator mounted. Really would have like to have the hoses on the bottom. Just couldn't figure out how to drill holes in the inside of the bumper frame to do it.

#5 The last step was adding the supplied mounting brackets and making sure everything was neat and no rub or clearance issues.

Seriously...... easier than I expected and oil temps in normal driving are around 200 degrees. Only drilled two holes: One for the two oil lines and one to mount a bracket for the lines. Highly recommend the $380.00 kit as it actually appears easier than other ones currently available for the car. The only extra things you need are two body bolt tabs, two bolts and some nylon ties. Ahhh.... Again,how much again does the Nissan one cost?

Thanks for the review! Very usefull. Looking at your review, Rackleys GTM cooler DIY and Modshacks DIY, made me think about doing one sooner rather then later. The only thing that worried me about the GTM kit is the 45 degree connectors. I want to install the cooler with the connectors facing downward. But as you can see in Rackley' DIY, this will lead to the oil lines sticking out from underneath the bumper.

So I contacted GTM to see if they can supply the oil lines with 90 degree connecters instead of 45 degree ones and they can! I actually got a call from GTM in about 5 minutes after I sent an e-mail. They confirmed that for the oil cooler kit for the 370Z, they will include 90 degree connectors (at on one side of the oil lines, other will remain 45 degrees). So I guess I'll be placing an order at GTM soon...

Maybe you can get some replacement connectors from them as well? (in case you want to change to downward facing connectors)

Modshack · 09-11-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

I didn't notice that. Thanks! Makes the kit even more attractive. Maybe it's me, but it really does appear to warm up slower. That's why I was thinking it didn't have one.

Now we need something to keep the water temps in check.

Here's how the thermo plate works:

The Mocal plate constantly bleeds some oil to the cooler without fully opening, even when cold. This is why the cooler feels hot well before the oil gets up to full temp and, what you would assume to be, the opening at 180 degrees...This helps Avoid thermal shock and potential failure as a result, to either the engine or cooler. The temp is gradually ramped up at the cooler.

As the oil comes up to temp and exceeds the 180 set point the Thermostat opens all the way and circulates at full volume.

On the water temps, don't worry about that. This car runs surprisingly cool in that area. Generally 182 degrees at cruise, occasionally popping up to 200-210 in traffic. Many modern engines run much hotter than this....

Denny McLain · 09-11-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB1

Thanks for the review! The only thing that worried me about the GTM kit is the 45 degree connectors. I want to install the cooler with the connectors facing downward. But as you can see in Rackley' DIY, this will lead to the oil lines sticking out from underneath the bumper.

So I contacted GTM to see if they can supply the oil lines with 90 degree connecters instead of 45 degree ones and they can! I actually got a call from GTM in about 5 minutes after I sent an e-mail. They confirmed that for the oil cooler kit for the 370Z, they will include 90 degree connectors (at on one side of the oil lines, other will remain 45 degrees). So I guess I'll be placing an order at GTM soon...

)

Mine came with one side 45 degrees and the other side 90 degrees. Should have mentioned it but frankly forgot.

Also......your welcome.

Denny McLain · 09-11-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Here's how the thermo plate works:

The Mocal plate constantly bleeds some oil to the cooler without fully opening, even when cold. This is why the cooler feels hot well before the oil gets up to full temp and, what you would assume to be, the opening at 180 degrees...This helps Avoid thermal shock and potential failure as a result, to either the engine or cooler. The temp is gradually ramped up at the cooler.

As the oil comes up to temp and exceeds the 180 set point the Thermostat opens all the way and circulates at full volume.

On the water temps, don't worry about that. This car runs surprisingly cool in that area. Generally 182 degrees at cruise, occasionally popping up to 200-210 in traffic. Many modern engines run much hotter than this....

Thanks for the information. Very informative and useful .

Water Temps......... The first time I dynoed my 370Z it sat 30-45 minutes with the hood closed going on the dyno. After the first pull it sat 30 minutes with the hood open and a fan on it. It gained 10 hp on the second pass. My opinion at the time was that it was heat soak which is common on numerous cars. The SVO Mustang is famous for losing as much as 60 hp when they get hot vs cold. The opposite is LSx engines which usually make the best hp on the third pull and don't seem to mind running a little hotter.

After getting the Cobb AccessPort and logging my timing, I've noticed the car pulls more timing out when it get hotter. Logged two runs with one at 184 water temp and the other after a couple of passes @ 207 degree water temps. The car pulled out 2 degrees of timing.

Now I'm not so sure about my original assumption of heat soak as reduced timing certainly will kill hp but there is a definite 370Z horsepower loss association with heat. The reason for the oil cooler for me was frankly to see if the oil temps were a factor. I'll repeat the logging and add the oil temps into the formula to see what the timing does.

My current feeling is the cars will make more usable power if they run cooler. If you read David Vissards book, he notes that small block Chevy's sweat spot for hp is 170 degree water temps. Hotter factory temps are usually done for emmissions and engine longevity.

I'm sure sooner or later someone will come out with a thermostat and I'll do my thing logging the timing to see what it does and also more dyno time.

Modshack · 09-11-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

Thanks for the information. Very informative and useful .

After getting the Cobb AccessPort and logging my timing, I've noticed the car pulls more timing out when it get hotter. Logged two runs with one at 184 water temp and the other after a couple of passes @ 207 degree water temps. The car pulled out 2 degrees of timing.

.

There is a timing pull and you'll naturally heat soak sitting on a dyno table...
It's not necessarily water related though. Your fans trigger at 212 dgrees and shut off at 202 so this is relatively well conrolled when sitting. On the road,temps will run around 182. Most of it (timing pull) is coming from elevated IAT (intake air) temps. I monitor both IAT's and water temps full time on my Scangauge. I've also posted graphs here showing the timing pull on Corvettes when the IAT's elevate. It's much more significant with IAT's compared to water temps. It's not unusual to see IAT's go as high as 150 degrees on the 370 when heat soaking. As close to ambient is where you want to be, which is why the injen and stillen G3 work as well as they do...They pull air from outside the engine bay. The stock system does too for that matter. None of this design is very effective on a dyno as ther's just not enough air flow. This is one reason I designed the Fang vent system to get cool air to the intake. My temps run only 5-10 degrees over ambient when rolling for minimal timing changes. Stop in traffic and the IAT's elevate pretty quickly which is why the car feels sluggish in these condidtions. Mine will come back down virtually immediately as soon as cool air starts getting fed to the intakes. IAT's are genrated at the MAF just upstream of the airbox.
Cooler is always better, but a cooler Water temp won't necessarlily change the IAT problem which IMO is the area that needs to be addressed..
I've played with this on both my previous Corvette and Audi TT and designed systems and insulated airboxes to address it. Finding ways to reduce IAT's worked nicely on both as it has on my 370..

JB1 · 09-11-2009, 09:50 PM

One question I do have about your install, it's not clear to
me why you didn't install the cooler with the hoses on the bottom? You said you don't want to drill holes in the bumper frame, but why would you have to?

And to Modshack: thank you for the insightful info on the IAT's!

Denny McLain · 09-12-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

There is a timing pull and you'll naturally heat soak sitting on a dyno table...
It's not necessarily water related though. Your fans trigger at 212 dgrees and shut off at 202 so this is relatively well conrolled when sitting. On the road,temps will run around 182. Most of it (timing pull) is coming from elevated IAT (intake air) temps. I monitor both IAT's and water temps full time on my Scangauge. I've also posted graphs here showing the timing pull on Corvettes when the IAT's elevate. It's much more significant with IAT's compared to water temps. It's not unusual to see IAT's go as high as 150 degrees on the 370 when heat soaking. As close to ambient is where you want to be, which is why the injen and stillen G3 work as well as they do...They pull air from outside the engine bay. The stock system does too for that matter. None of this design is very effective on a dyno as ther's just not enough air flow. This is one reason I designed the Fang vent system to get cool air to the intake. My temps run only 5-10 degrees over ambient when rolling for minimal timing changes. Stop in traffic and the IAT's elevate pretty quickly which is why the car feels sluggish in these condidtions. Mine will come back down virtually immediately as soon as cool air starts getting fed to the intakes. IAT's are genrated at the MAF just upstream of the airbox.
Cooler is always better, but a cooler Water temp won't necessarlily change the IAT problem which IMO is the area that needs to be addressed..
I've played with this on both my previous Corvette and Audi TT and designed systems and insulated airboxes to address it. Finding ways to reduce IAT's worked nicely on both as it has on my 370..

Think we have a fair amount of parallel thinking going on here. Here is how I lowered the intake temps on my Corvette. Ram Air intake with a sheet metal intake.

Ram Air Intake picture by dennylmclain - Photobucket

Sheet Metal Intake picture by dennylmclain - Photobucket

This is what I've done so far to lower them on the 370:

Heat Barrier on Gen 3 intake picture by dennylmclain - Photobucket

Heat barrier in engine bay picture by dennylmclain - Photobucket

Basically two layers of thermal barrier wrap with four layers over the MAF sensors in addition to cutting a center hole in the Styrofoam bumper to see if that would deliver more air to the K+N filters.

Looks Ghetto but like you, I've been monitoring my intake temps and yesterday when starting the car cold in 80 degree ambient weather and just driving, the intake temps were 8 degrees over ambient going down to six degrees when the throttle was applied. Really just now trying to get down to the nitty gritty to figure out what the cars like and don't like. Going to monitor water temps, oil temps and intake temps to see if I could figure some consistency.

Bought the tubing to duct air better to the filters and tried to do it Thursday, but just wasn't happy with the routing and securing it when putting the front fascia back on the car. Was in bed this morning thinking about ways to do a true ram air system for the car. I'll keep playing with it to see what happens.

Big believer in dyno time and also a big believer in what I would call "pragmatic power" which doesn't necessarily show on the dyno. Usually dyno pulls are made under the best condition possible which isn't what you encounter in every day driving.

For every 1 degree of air intake reduction you gain 1 percent in hp and if you can lower that during real world driving, you struck oil in my opinion.

Nice thinking and nice work!

Denny McLain · 09-12-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB1

One question I do have about your install, it's not clear to me why you didn't install the cooler with the hoses on the bottom? You said you don't want to drill holes in the bumper frame, but why would you have to?
!

Basically because I'm not smart enough to figure out how to do it. If you use the existing holes the oil fittings would hang too low. The ideal would be to drill new holes in the bumper frame on the inside and hang the cooler downward. Problem is no room to drill the holes.

Maybe a 90 degree drill would work but I was fresh out of them when I did it.

Modshack · 09-12-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

Nice thinking and nice work!

Thanks...

...Yeah, I think we are both thinking the same things here..

I'm also thinking, given the extent of your G3 insulation effort and resultant temps, that it won't get much better than that. I'm seeing the same numbers with my insulated intake and vent system. While I may be able to improve it slightly by sealing the box to the front radiator brace it may not be worth the effort. My silicone tubing is probably more resistant to heat pick-up than the stillen aluminum which helps too.

On neatening up the Forced air, I'm guessing you saw my DIY on that:
http://www.the370z.com/diy-section-d...ur-airbox.html

We had also explored the G3 venting on another thread somewhere, and I think a Vette-air scoop mounted below the aluminum impact bar could be effectively used to get air to those boxes..

Keep on working on it....We'll get this figured out yet!

JB1 · 09-12-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

If you use the existing holes the oil fittings would hang too low.

Ah, I get it, the bracket is too small, making the cooler sit too low. Thanks again for the feedback!

Denny McLain · 09-12-2009, 11:25 AM

[QUOTE=Modshack;195583]Thanks...

...Yeah, I think we are both thinking the same things here..

I'm also thinking, given the extent of your G3 insulation effort and resultant temps, that it won't get much better than that. I'm seeing the same numbers with my insulated intake and vent system. While I may be able to improve it slightly by sealing the box to the front radiator brace it may not be worth the effort. My silicone tubing is probably more resistant to heat pick-up than the stillen aluminum which helps too.

On neatening up the Forced air, I'm guessing you saw my DIY on that:

We had also explored the G3 venting on another thread somewhere, and I think a Vette-air scoop mounted below the aluminum impact bar could be effectively used to get air to those boxes..

QUOTE]

Again, we are thinking the same and my feeling is 6 degrees ain't that much and maybe it ain't so broken after all. Was also thinking about a C5 or C6 type scoop and ways to seal off the filters from radiator heat.

No I didn't see the post and will read it closely, but I will say one thing ....Your intake looks a hell of a lot better than mine. You can take me out of the Ghetto, but guess you can't take the Ghetto out of me.

Just reviewed my last log session in which I made (4) 0-80 mph passes in a row and the water temps were between 205 and 210 and there was basically no change in timing from any of the runs. No intake or oil temps logged so I'll replicate it playing with cooling the intake temps and oil temps down compared with hot.

You may be right regarding the trigger that shuts down timing may be intake temps or 5 degrees of variance just doesn't make much a difference. Now I did see -2 degrees logging a 184 degree run vs 206 degree run but that may be coincidence as I'm sure the intake/oil temps were also different.

Denny McLain · 09-12-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB1

Ah, I get it, the bracket is too small, making the cooler sit too low. Thanks again for the feedback!

Your welcome. If someone where to replicate how I mounted the oil cooler I seriously doubt it would take over an hour to do it once the car is jacked up, the front and dust cover removed.

Just drain the oil, remove the filter, drill a 1.5 inch hole, run the lines through, connect the filter adapter, connect the lines, snap on the bolt clips, put the bracket on the radiator, connect the lines to the oil radiator, bolt the radiator in place, neaten everything up drilling one hole for the clamps and a few plastic ties. Your done.

Pretty damn simple after you've done one and no way in the world would you need to spend more money as your not going to get anything that works better or is easier to do.

Modshack · 09-12-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny McLain

You may be right regarding the trigger that shuts down timing may be intake temps or 5 degrees of variance just doesn't make much a difference. Now I did see -2 degrees logging a 184 degree run vs 206 degree run but that may be coincidence as I'm sure the intake/oil temps were also different.

Yeah....Hard to tell what the trigger is on the Nissan ECU. On the Vette (LS3) it's easy to see (and also easy to change the values with software like HP tuners). As I recall from my Vette logs there was no Water temp related timing pull until temps exceeded 235 or so....

On my Fang vents, it should be easy to route the hoses to the G3 filters instead of into the Radiator brace as i did...

As you can see from this chart, there is no reference or scaling to ambient, so over 86 degrees IAT you're hosed no matter what unless you make a software change. I recall I had shifted the table a column to the right...(time to move north!)
IAT temps and timing pull:

09-12-2009, 11:25 AM	#28 (permalink)
Denny McLain Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Double Oak Tx Posts: 255 Drives: 370Z, 96CE hotrod Rep Power: 16	[QUOTE=Modshack;195583]Thanks......Yeah, I think we are both thinking the same things here.. I'm also thinking, given the extent of your G3 insulation effort and resultant temps, that it won't get much better than that. I'm seeing the same numbers with my insulated intake and vent system. While I may be able to improve it slightly by sealing the box to the front radiator brace it may not be worth the effort. My silicone tubing is probably more resistant to heat pick-up than the stillen aluminum which helps too. On neatening up the Forced air, I'm guessing you saw my DIY on that: We had also explored the G3 venting on another thread somewhere, and I think a Vette-air scoop mounted below the aluminum impact bar could be effectively used to get air to those boxes.. QUOTE] Again, we are thinking the same and my feeling is 6 degrees ain't that much and maybe it ain't so broken after all. Was also thinking about a C5 or C6 type scoop and ways to seal off the filters from radiator heat. No I didn't see the post and will read it closely, but I will say one thing ....Your intake looks a hell of a lot better than mine. You can take me out of the Ghetto, but guess you can't take the Ghetto out of me. Just reviewed my last log session in which I made (4) 0-80 mph passes in a row and the water temps were between 205 and 210 and there was basically no change in timing from any of the runs. No intake or oil temps logged so I'll replicate it playing with cooling the intake temps and oil temps down compared with hot. You may be right regarding the trigger that shuts down timing may be intake temps or 5 degrees of variance just doesn't make much a difference. Now I did see -2 degrees logging a 184 degree run vs 206 degree run but that may be coincidence as I'm sure the intake/oil temps were also different.

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09-11-2009, 09:50 PM	#23 (permalink)
JB1 Track Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 748 Drives: 09 Nissan 370Z sold Rep Power: 17	One question I do have about your install, it's not clear to me why you didn't install the cooler with the hoses on the bottom? You said you don't want to drill holes in the bumper frame, but why would you have to? And to Modshack: thank you for the insightful info on the IAT's!